Advice on a purchase and idea on price
08-18-2014, 11:03 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Villages, Fl
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Advice on a purchase and idea on price
Hey Everyone,
I've got a line on a 2010 C4S with 21,000 miles and has sport chrono, full leather, directional headlights, heated, ventilated seats and heated steering wheel, PDK, XM, Nav, Bose, MP3 ready, not sure about the seats as to power/adjustability (not sport seats). Here's a big one for me - it is under extended CPO warranty from the dealer - is covered until June of 2016! The guy wants $68,500 as a private seller...is this a good price and what would you guys offer? After the usual PPI - somebody has to look at it. I'm not going to fly up there unless it checks.
As to service - he's asked me to call the dealer to find out what service was provided. He bought the car a year ago - drove it 5500 miles, it's ready for a 20k mile service, and he's done nothing. I am not sure what should have been done but in 4 years I would think most have done a brake flush, oil changes, air filters. - Anything else guys??? Don't know if the car was a lease or what? Hopefully the dealer will tell me something about it.
Will a dealer give out that info if they were the sellers of the car? I'm still in the discovery stage but it is the car and one of the colors I've been looking for. It's a little more than my budget but I think he may be asking too much. I'm thinking (hoping) maybe $65 or so?
Your collective intelligence is needed - thanks guys. I feel like something is getting me closer to an actual buy. I have another that may come thru later this week that may/is even better. Keeping my fingers crossed!
Thanks again
I've got a line on a 2010 C4S with 21,000 miles and has sport chrono, full leather, directional headlights, heated, ventilated seats and heated steering wheel, PDK, XM, Nav, Bose, MP3 ready, not sure about the seats as to power/adjustability (not sport seats). Here's a big one for me - it is under extended CPO warranty from the dealer - is covered until June of 2016! The guy wants $68,500 as a private seller...is this a good price and what would you guys offer? After the usual PPI - somebody has to look at it. I'm not going to fly up there unless it checks.
As to service - he's asked me to call the dealer to find out what service was provided. He bought the car a year ago - drove it 5500 miles, it's ready for a 20k mile service, and he's done nothing. I am not sure what should have been done but in 4 years I would think most have done a brake flush, oil changes, air filters. - Anything else guys??? Don't know if the car was a lease or what? Hopefully the dealer will tell me something about it.
Will a dealer give out that info if they were the sellers of the car? I'm still in the discovery stage but it is the car and one of the colors I've been looking for. It's a little more than my budget but I think he may be asking too much. I'm thinking (hoping) maybe $65 or so?
Your collective intelligence is needed - thanks guys. I feel like something is getting me closer to an actual buy. I have another that may come thru later this week that may/is even better. Keeping my fingers crossed!
Thanks again
08-19-2014, 01:38 PM
#3
Sounds like a well optioned car if you like the PDK.
I think the 4 year service includes plugs which are pretty expensive but I've been advised not to bother with the plugs in mine by a few people including mechanics. It's ultra low mileage, just 8k now. I think yours would probably fall into the same category as the plugs are a 60k miles/4 year type deal. The plugs are rated for I believe, 10 years. I'm not suggesting you don't do yours I'm just not going to bother with mine yet due to the advice of several very good Porsche mechanics.
Car pricing might be a bit on the high end but it doesn't seem way out of line. I think mid 60's would be a good price for that car. At least in California, 2 months ago, that would have been a good price. That was sort of the last time I was looking at pricing on these vehicles.
I think the 4 year service includes plugs which are pretty expensive but I've been advised not to bother with the plugs in mine by a few people including mechanics. It's ultra low mileage, just 8k now. I think yours would probably fall into the same category as the plugs are a 60k miles/4 year type deal. The plugs are rated for I believe, 10 years. I'm not suggesting you don't do yours I'm just not going to bother with mine yet due to the advice of several very good Porsche mechanics.
Car pricing might be a bit on the high end but it doesn't seem way out of line. I think mid 60's would be a good price for that car. At least in California, 2 months ago, that would have been a good price. That was sort of the last time I was looking at pricing on these vehicles.
08-19-2014, 01:53 PM
#4
Price seems fair, but only if car is in great condition. I think $65k is a very fair offer, not knowing anything about the car but if you need to do that service yourself that should (in my view) be deducted from the offer price... Would check tires too.
Remember, everyone will ask above what they will sell for (well, most people) to allow some room for negotiation. In my humble opinion, with the CPO in place, and assuming color combo etc is what you want, then it is "worth" all of that $68k (though with adjustments if tires need immediate replacement and the service needs to get done). If it is above budget, and you need to stay in that budget, that is a different sort of consideration.
If you wait, you will likely find a better deal -- this price just doesn't look like an "opportunity" price to me, rather a fair price. In my own search, I turned down great opportunities because I valued getting exactly my preference above the price difference.
I responded to an earlier post on a very similar sounding car just last night. I must say I find the whole process of determining fair prices for cars fascinating. I think it's important to keep in mind, that there is no single "best price" -- the market price of a car is determined by groups of buyers and sellers. For maximizing our own enjoyment in a purchase, we need to consider our own "utility curve" for the purchase. For example, a standard black 09 911 C4s with 10,000 miles might be valued at $65,000. For me, if I don't like black (I do, just not my favorite), even if I could buy a car like that for $63,000, it might not mean I'm getting a good deal for maximizing my own personal cost/benefit, even though I'm paying below market. If, however, my preferred car is speed yellow C2S, and they come up rarely... and the market price is $60,000 and one is available firm at $62,000.... my personal "value" for the car may be much higher... so I would derive much more enjoyment for the price, despite paying above-market.
Just an alternative way to look at things. The key is to never divulge to the other party what your personal value is (never say "this is exactly what I'm looking for!" etc)... That way you can truly maximize your own personal value (benefit vs. cost). This rant is just because I feel like there is sometimes too great a focus on the dollars themselves, rather than what we are really buying, which is some personal enjoyment out of the cars.
Worst case is to just keep searching and then eventually give in on something that you aren't truly psyched about, but just because it looks like a good "deal" ... I wonder if that accounts for why some people hold onto a car for only a year or two, without putting many miles on.
On a side note... I would definitely try to figure out why the owner held the car for such a small amount of time...
Remember, everyone will ask above what they will sell for (well, most people) to allow some room for negotiation. In my humble opinion, with the CPO in place, and assuming color combo etc is what you want, then it is "worth" all of that $68k (though with adjustments if tires need immediate replacement and the service needs to get done). If it is above budget, and you need to stay in that budget, that is a different sort of consideration.
If you wait, you will likely find a better deal -- this price just doesn't look like an "opportunity" price to me, rather a fair price. In my own search, I turned down great opportunities because I valued getting exactly my preference above the price difference.
I responded to an earlier post on a very similar sounding car just last night. I must say I find the whole process of determining fair prices for cars fascinating. I think it's important to keep in mind, that there is no single "best price" -- the market price of a car is determined by groups of buyers and sellers. For maximizing our own enjoyment in a purchase, we need to consider our own "utility curve" for the purchase. For example, a standard black 09 911 C4s with 10,000 miles might be valued at $65,000. For me, if I don't like black (I do, just not my favorite), even if I could buy a car like that for $63,000, it might not mean I'm getting a good deal for maximizing my own personal cost/benefit, even though I'm paying below market. If, however, my preferred car is speed yellow C2S, and they come up rarely... and the market price is $60,000 and one is available firm at $62,000.... my personal "value" for the car may be much higher... so I would derive much more enjoyment for the price, despite paying above-market.
Just an alternative way to look at things. The key is to never divulge to the other party what your personal value is (never say "this is exactly what I'm looking for!" etc)... That way you can truly maximize your own personal value (benefit vs. cost). This rant is just because I feel like there is sometimes too great a focus on the dollars themselves, rather than what we are really buying, which is some personal enjoyment out of the cars.
Worst case is to just keep searching and then eventually give in on something that you aren't truly psyched about, but just because it looks like a good "deal" ... I wonder if that accounts for why some people hold onto a car for only a year or two, without putting many miles on.
On a side note... I would definitely try to figure out why the owner held the car for such a small amount of time...
08-19-2014, 02:13 PM
#5
That's also a good point SpeedyD.
I know I paid slightly more then I could have in order to have the ideal car. Low mileage, Carrara White and manual. There where certainly viable options in other colors for slightly cheaper but the white car had an inherent value to me personally. 3 months later I don't have any regrets and only wish that I had purchased this vehicle earlier instead of wasting weeks looking at viable alternatives I felt where at a better price point.
I should have known better. Settling for less then ideal vehicles has always turned out to be more expensive for me in the past. I've taken loses in order to procure the more ideal vehicle later when I should have just done it in the first place.
I know I paid slightly more then I could have in order to have the ideal car. Low mileage, Carrara White and manual. There where certainly viable options in other colors for slightly cheaper but the white car had an inherent value to me personally. 3 months later I don't have any regrets and only wish that I had purchased this vehicle earlier instead of wasting weeks looking at viable alternatives I felt where at a better price point.
I should have known better. Settling for less then ideal vehicles has always turned out to be more expensive for me in the past. I've taken loses in order to procure the more ideal vehicle later when I should have just done it in the first place.
08-19-2014, 04:15 PM
#6
Drifting
SpeedyD has good advice.
To me, the price on the car seems a bit high. You're paying for all of those options. If they are what you want, then that's good. If not, then you're paying too much.
Typically these days dealers will not disclose maintenance history to anyone other than the current owner. He needs to step up and provide you with whatever you need. It doesn't sound like he is a motivated seller.
Atlanta is a big market - surely you can find something local that fits your needs and will be easier to deal with?
To me, the price on the car seems a bit high. You're paying for all of those options. If they are what you want, then that's good. If not, then you're paying too much.
Typically these days dealers will not disclose maintenance history to anyone other than the current owner. He needs to step up and provide you with whatever you need. It doesn't sound like he is a motivated seller.
Atlanta is a big market - surely you can find something local that fits your needs and will be easier to deal with?
08-19-2014, 04:38 PM
#7
I would of course attempt to negotiate the price but at the end of the day $68K for a 2010 CPO car that had an original MSRP likely in the $120K range with those options is well within reason. Offer $63K, be willing to pay $65K if PPI is good.
Trending Topics
08-19-2014, 09:45 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Villages, Fl
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great advice!
Thanks everyone - all great advice! SpeedyD made great points as well as those that followed.
To let you know I do like the color combo a great deal - it's the color both interior and exterior I was looking for as first choice - it has all the options that I would want except for sport seats but that's hardly a deal breaker. So the idea to wait for some better deal doesn't make a lot of sense cause I've been looking for at least 6 months.
The owner is a funny duck - haven't called him yet as I'm walking into this a little slowly cause he's not real communicative by email and has not answered my questions and has written 3 times. It's like he's not reading my emails all the way thru or he's skirting my questions on purpose.
I've asked him directly for service history and he tells me to call the dealer. Says he's selling cause he has 4 cars and 2 drivers and then says he's thinking about a Mecan. Obviously he could trade but he wants to sell by owner to get more from the sale and I can't blame him for that. It's just a bit funny. I've got to have someone to lay eyes on it if I can before I spend money on a PPI. But I want to do a little more homework first and talk with him personally to size him up properly.
The other thing is that one of our Rennlisters has a car I've been trying to get for over a year. He's a great guy and has a car that actually is even better in some ways than this one and it would be closer or within my budget . And I think I'll know something by the end of the week on my friends car. So I'm kind of ok with this dragging a bit. It's a lot of money and more than I've ever spent on a fun car so it's not real easy, although I've set aside money for it, to pull the trigger.
All this said I really appreciate how you all ralley around with your good advice - helps making decisions easier! Thanks guys!
To let you know I do like the color combo a great deal - it's the color both interior and exterior I was looking for as first choice - it has all the options that I would want except for sport seats but that's hardly a deal breaker. So the idea to wait for some better deal doesn't make a lot of sense cause I've been looking for at least 6 months.
The owner is a funny duck - haven't called him yet as I'm walking into this a little slowly cause he's not real communicative by email and has not answered my questions and has written 3 times. It's like he's not reading my emails all the way thru or he's skirting my questions on purpose.
I've asked him directly for service history and he tells me to call the dealer. Says he's selling cause he has 4 cars and 2 drivers and then says he's thinking about a Mecan. Obviously he could trade but he wants to sell by owner to get more from the sale and I can't blame him for that. It's just a bit funny. I've got to have someone to lay eyes on it if I can before I spend money on a PPI. But I want to do a little more homework first and talk with him personally to size him up properly.
The other thing is that one of our Rennlisters has a car I've been trying to get for over a year. He's a great guy and has a car that actually is even better in some ways than this one and it would be closer or within my budget . And I think I'll know something by the end of the week on my friends car. So I'm kind of ok with this dragging a bit. It's a lot of money and more than I've ever spent on a fun car so it's not real easy, although I've set aside money for it, to pull the trigger.
All this said I really appreciate how you all ralley around with your good advice - helps making decisions easier! Thanks guys!
08-19-2014, 09:57 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
There's a red / sand 2009 CS4 CAB here for sale $ 65k. PDK, Sports Chrono, NAV. Nice car. I think the car you are looking at is a bit on the tall side.
Have you tried doing a KBB price check?
Have you tried doing a KBB price check?
08-19-2014, 10:07 PM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Villages, Fl
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your reply!
08-19-2014, 11:42 PM
#11
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
All great advice so far; here is a data point re the '10 c4s that I purchased last Oct:
Highly optioned (what you noted in the vehicle that you're interested except 6MT + SPASM, PSE & more little things like 2-tone leather interior, deviated stitching...orig invoice was $118k+), 25k miles, CPO through March '16, maintenance up to date. I wanted new tires because I was driving it home from VA > CA (the long way!) but it didn't need them yet. Private party sale which was listed at $65.5k and I got it for $64.5.
I'd be a bit concerned that the seller is not being communicative with you, however you need to remove the emotion from the equation (easier said than accomplished) and walk if he doesn't make the time to accommodate your justified requests. Summer is fast coming to an end and he may be a bit more motivated after Labor Day...best of luck and be patient if possible!
Highly optioned (what you noted in the vehicle that you're interested except 6MT + SPASM, PSE & more little things like 2-tone leather interior, deviated stitching...orig invoice was $118k+), 25k miles, CPO through March '16, maintenance up to date. I wanted new tires because I was driving it home from VA > CA (the long way!) but it didn't need them yet. Private party sale which was listed at $65.5k and I got it for $64.5.
I'd be a bit concerned that the seller is not being communicative with you, however you need to remove the emotion from the equation (easier said than accomplished) and walk if he doesn't make the time to accommodate your justified requests. Summer is fast coming to an end and he may be a bit more motivated after Labor Day...best of luck and be patient if possible!
08-20-2014, 12:09 AM
#12
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I don't know how it works in GA., but in IL. you pay sales tax (6.5-7.5%) on the difference between the trade in value and the new car sales price. No trade in, you pay tax on the full amount. So for a private deal to be better for the seller, he needs to get a price higher than the trade value plus tax on that value.
This guy does not sound like a truly motivated seller. If hasn't got any service history, what makes you think he properly serviced it. Most dealers will not give out info on a car's history without written or oral permission from the owner.
I'd think I'd move on down the road and find another car.
This guy does not sound like a truly motivated seller. If hasn't got any service history, what makes you think he properly serviced it. Most dealers will not give out info on a car's history without written or oral permission from the owner.
I'd think I'd move on down the road and find another car.
08-20-2014, 12:35 AM
#13
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Villages, Fl
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks David, the car I'm looking at listed for 113k I believe. About emotions, having been thru this many times over the last ten years, it's a lot easier now than it was 6 cars ago - this time I am very calm about all this. I've been more patient this time than ever before and I have no trouble walking if I can't verify all my questions. Your point is well put and I really appreciate your telling about your deal. It sounds like it was a good deal!
When you think about a 2010 911 with only 21k miles it's gotta be in pretty good shape but there could be hidden issues too. I'm going into this deal already with one eyebrow raised. I'll keep you guys informed as things develop but there is another I'm hoping for that is a Targa 4 with sport chrono & PASM and a cocoa interior that really appeals to me a lot! Nice to have choices! Hope it all works out.
Thanks
When you think about a 2010 911 with only 21k miles it's gotta be in pretty good shape but there could be hidden issues too. I'm going into this deal already with one eyebrow raised. I'll keep you guys informed as things develop but there is another I'm hoping for that is a Targa 4 with sport chrono & PASM and a cocoa interior that really appeals to me a lot! Nice to have choices! Hope it all works out.
Thanks
All great advice so far; here is a data point re the '10 c4s that I purchased last Oct:
Highly optioned (what you noted in the vehicle that you're interested except 6MT + SPASM, PSE & more little things like 2-tone leather interior, deviated stitching...orig invoice was $118k+), 25k miles, CPO through March '16, maintenance up to date. I wanted new tires because I was driving it home from VA > CA (the long way!) but it didn't need them yet. Private party sale which was listed at $65.5k and I got it for $64.5.
I'd be a bit concerned that the seller is not being communicative with you, however you need to remove the emotion from the equation (easier said than accomplished) and walk if he doesn't make the time to accommodate your justified requests. Summer is fast coming to an end and he may be a bit more motivated after Labor Day...best of luck and be patient if possible!
Highly optioned (what you noted in the vehicle that you're interested except 6MT + SPASM, PSE & more little things like 2-tone leather interior, deviated stitching...orig invoice was $118k+), 25k miles, CPO through March '16, maintenance up to date. I wanted new tires because I was driving it home from VA > CA (the long way!) but it didn't need them yet. Private party sale which was listed at $65.5k and I got it for $64.5.
I'd be a bit concerned that the seller is not being communicative with you, however you need to remove the emotion from the equation (easier said than accomplished) and walk if he doesn't make the time to accommodate your justified requests. Summer is fast coming to an end and he may be a bit more motivated after Labor Day...best of luck and be patient if possible!
08-20-2014, 09:14 AM
#14
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
08-20-2014, 11:01 AM
#15
1.) Why would a Porsche owner specify the C4S as having additional 30 hp? 30 hp more than what, the 997.1? Just reading that suggests the owner doesn't know his Porsches that well? It comes off sounding like the 4s model is both wider and has more power... I think I'm overly critical as an enthusiast who has lusted over these cars for decades, to see people make mistakes like that when listing their own car...
2.) Has anyone here ever listed a vehicle in that price range on Craigslist, and with only two actual vehicle pictures? Unless I was missing something, couldn't really see much of the car... They said they'll post more later...
3.) No indication on number of owners, accident / clean carfax, etc. Would be first question I'd ask by email.
It is a good data point to show where the "ask" is on cars across the range. I can't reiterate enough to always try and get the best price, walk away from people who won't sell below what you're willing to pay, but always be willing to pay what you personally feel willing to pay, when it comes down to it. Or you may end up missing the chance to own YOUR dream car. Convoluted? Absolutely!
Also, in addition to KBB, which I think is actually a great resource in these sorts of cars (which tend to have somewhat less variance in condition than mass produced models) -- I believe you can run statistics through autotrader and see average prices by region, mileage, etc? I recall doing this a few times in the past. Again, my guess is prices will be biased somewhat lower, because incident cars are more likely to transact privately (whereas Porsche dealers will avoid those because it takes too much showroom space, for too long to move). So the bias will be, let's say, 5% or 10% lower because of that (and even lower vs. dealer cars that are subject to a markup or come certified more often)!