All this talk about M96 vs. M97 - what's the straight dope?
12-07-2012, 01:15 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
All this talk about M96 vs. M97 - what's the straight dope?
On this forum I have seen two theories behind which cars have the M96 engine and which have the M97:
The challenge: Post some sort of proof that your 2005+ Carrera S has an M96 engine OR that your base Carrera has an M97 engine.
I'm betting no one can. Prove me wrong!
1. The M96 engine was in production (for both base and S cars) until sometime in 2005 when Porsche switched over to the M97 (for both base and S cars). The M96 engines had the "old" IMS. The M97 had the "new" IMS.
2. The M96 is the engine used in base cars. The M97 is the engine used in S cars. The IMS was changed over for both engines sometime in early 2005, so there would be both M96 and M97 engines with both old and new IMS bearings.
I'm in camp 2, but I'd love to know the facts.2. The M96 is the engine used in base cars. The M97 is the engine used in S cars. The IMS was changed over for both engines sometime in early 2005, so there would be both M96 and M97 engines with both old and new IMS bearings.
The challenge: Post some sort of proof that your 2005+ Carrera S has an M96 engine OR that your base Carrera has an M97 engine.
I'm betting no one can. Prove me wrong!
Last edited by mgordon18; 12-07-2012 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Tried to correct the typo in the subject line.
12-07-2012, 01:25 AM
#2
I'm also in camp 2.
There have been several '06-'08 MY Carrera (non-S) owners who stated their engines start with M96 and also '05 Carrera S owners who stated their engines start with M97.
But I've never seen an '05 C2S owner confirm their S engine starts with M96, nor an '06-'08 non-S owner confirm their engine starts with M97.
Edgy01 (Dan) posted this picture on how to confirm your engine number:
There have been several '06-'08 MY Carrera (non-S) owners who stated their engines start with M96 and also '05 Carrera S owners who stated their engines start with M97.
But I've never seen an '05 C2S owner confirm their S engine starts with M96, nor an '06-'08 non-S owner confirm their engine starts with M97.
Edgy01 (Dan) posted this picture on how to confirm your engine number:
12-07-2012, 03:50 AM
#3
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I'm also in camp 2.
There have been several '06-'08 MY Carrera (non-S) owners who stated their engines start with M96 and also '05 Carrera S owners who stated their engines start with M97.
But I've never seen an '05 C2S owner confirm their S engine starts with M96, nor an '06-'08 non-S owner confirm their engine starts with M97.
Edgy01 (Dan) posted this picture on how to confirm your engine number:
There have been several '06-'08 MY Carrera (non-S) owners who stated their engines start with M96 and also '05 Carrera S owners who stated their engines start with M97.
But I've never seen an '05 C2S owner confirm their S engine starts with M96, nor an '06-'08 non-S owner confirm their engine starts with M97.
Edgy01 (Dan) posted this picture on how to confirm your engine number:
12-07-2012, 04:07 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Just look at the sticker on your frunk lid it will indicate whether your car has an M96 or M97. Personally I'd rather have an M96 as there is a good retrofit upgrade (just do it when you do your clutch) whereas the M97 neccessitates an engine teardown to change out the IMS bearing. Both versions have this same design weakness!!
12-07-2012, 11:00 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
Fanny bay - I guess you're in camp #1.
How do you explain the engine in M//DREI's 05 997 C2, mentioned in the thread, IMS replacement dilemma? His car has the M96 engine with the new IMS bearing setup? You're even a poster on that thread...
That's a great case-in-point. You can't assume the old, replaceable IMS bearings based on the engine model alone. His M96 has the new kit.
I'm positing that the M97 is not a sequential upgrade to the M96. They are simply two slightly different engines (one difference being that one has 325hp and the other 355hp), both in production at the same time... each acquiring mid-cycle improvements like the IMS bearings on their own schedule.
If someone could show me an M97 engine in a base car that would prove me wrong. Likewise, if someone could show me an M96 engine on an S car, that would also prove me wrong.
I'd like to straighten this out once and for all on this forum so all the bad info can be called out when it's given - and those people can be directed to this thread as supporting evidence.
How do you explain the engine in M//DREI's 05 997 C2, mentioned in the thread, IMS replacement dilemma? His car has the M96 engine with the new IMS bearing setup? You're even a poster on that thread...
That's a great case-in-point. You can't assume the old, replaceable IMS bearings based on the engine model alone. His M96 has the new kit.
I'm positing that the M97 is not a sequential upgrade to the M96. They are simply two slightly different engines (one difference being that one has 325hp and the other 355hp), both in production at the same time... each acquiring mid-cycle improvements like the IMS bearings on their own schedule.
If someone could show me an M97 engine in a base car that would prove me wrong. Likewise, if someone could show me an M96 engine on an S car, that would also prove me wrong.
I'd like to straighten this out once and for all on this forum so all the bad info can be called out when it's given - and those people can be directed to this thread as supporting evidence.
12-07-2012, 11:26 AM
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On this forum I have seen two theories behind which cars have the M96 engine and which have the M97:
The challenge: Post some sort of proof that your 2005+ Carrera S has an M96 engine OR that your base Carrera has an M97 engine.
I'm betting no one can. Prove me wrong!
1. The M96 engine was in production (for both base and S cars) until sometime in 2005 when Porsche switched over to the M97 (for both base and S cars). The M96 engines had the "old" IMS. The M97 had the "new" IMS.
2. The M96 is the engine used in base cars. The M97 is the engine used in S cars. The IMS was changed over for both engines sometime in early 2005, so there would be both M96 and M97 engines with both old and new IMS bearings.
I'm in camp 2, but I'd love to know the facts.2. The M96 is the engine used in base cars. The M97 is the engine used in S cars. The IMS was changed over for both engines sometime in early 2005, so there would be both M96 and M97 engines with both old and new IMS bearings.
The challenge: Post some sort of proof that your 2005+ Carrera S has an M96 engine OR that your base Carrera has an M97 engine.
I'm betting no one can. Prove me wrong!
Here is the proof, see pages 9 and 10:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/93289189/Po..._1952-2012.pdf
12-07-2012, 12:55 PM
#7
I agree I'd rather have the old bearing that can be easily replaced - in fact did just that about a month ago at the same time I did the clutch. I have a 2005c2S with a M97 engine with the old bearing so as long as you have an early 05 you can do it with both the M97 and M96.
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12-07-2012, 12:57 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
Holden, you are my one, true love.
That doc shows:
That doc shows:
- The M96 engine was in production between the years 1998 and 2008 and was used in base 997s (starting in 2005)
- The M97 engine was in production between the years 2005 and 2008 and was used in S 997s only
12-07-2012, 01:09 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
In all fairness we may be being far too clinical here and applying aircraft levels of configuration management in terms of what are only cars!! It may be the case that during a transition phase of an engine upgrade many mods/parts are utilized based of their logistic availability M97's are on the line in 05 but a few hundred old IMS bearings are left to be used up or the new one aren't available yet!! Who knows???
They are German but even Germans have an **** limit!!
They are German but even Germans have an **** limit!!
12-07-2012, 01:33 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
In all fairness we may be being far too clinical here and applying aircraft levels of configuration management in terms of what are only cars!! It may be the case that during a transition phase of an engine upgrade many mods/parts are utilized based of their logistic availability M97's are on the line in 05 but a few hundred old IMS bearings are left to be used up or the new one aren't available yet!! Who knows???
They are German but even Germans have an **** limit!!
They are German but even Germans have an **** limit!!
And there are M97s out there with the old and M97s out there with the new.
The bearings you have have nothing to do with the engine type in your car. The bearings are only dependent on whether or not your car (either M96 or M97) was built before or after they upgraded the bearing set for your engine.
In another thread we estimated that Porsche changed the M97 over to the new bearings sometime in the neighborhood of February 2005. If your car was built significantly AFTER that date, you probably have the newer bearings. But anywhere near that date and it's a toss-up.
12-07-2012, 03:16 PM
#11
12-07-2012, 04:45 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
core IMS assembly is same for both M96 and M97 engines, with very minor diffs. M97 is a 3.8L, M96 is a 3.6L.
both engines had many internal modifications made to them during their lifecycle, not only to IMS, most significant change was in mid-2006, some minor changes were done in 2008.
any IMS disregarding of its version may potentially fail, if you want not to think about it - buy a 2009 car with 9a1 motor instead.
both engines had many internal modifications made to them during their lifecycle, not only to IMS, most significant change was in mid-2006, some minor changes were done in 2008.
any IMS disregarding of its version may potentially fail, if you want not to think about it - buy a 2009 car with 9a1 motor instead.
12-08-2012, 03:21 PM
#13
12-08-2012, 09:23 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
I agree I'd rather have the old bearing that can be easily replaced - in fact did just that about a month ago at the same time I did the clutch. I have a 2005c2S with a M97 engine with the old bearing so as long as you have an early 05 you can do it with both the M97 and M96.
