Sweetspot of depreciation? at what age, milage?
04-20-2012, 05:55 PM
#16
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I think lower mileage 993s and 993 TTs will continue to hold their value well; age and lack of creature comforts haven't really hurt the other sweet spots in the 911 range, the pre-74 2.4 911 cars and the 87-89 G-50 3.2 Carreras. It's the air-cooled mystique that will protect those cars, the somewhat orphaned 911S, 911SC and 964 range not withstanding. There will be people who want one, and the pool of available, nice, low mileage cars gets smaller as time goes on. Same deal with the 930 and 964 3.3 and 3.6 Turbos. You just can't buy a car like that new anymore. You used to be able to find a nice late 930 with 20-30k miles in the mid 30s 10 years ago, and now you can't touch those cars for that price.
The newer cars -- and I am interested in a 997 myself -- I think will continue to slowly depreciate more from the top down as a result of the evolution of the water-cooled 911 increasing performance, safety and available technology ... i.e., DFI, PDK > Tiptronic, and so forth. In that sense, I think it's likely that a low mileage 02-04 996 will create a bottom of the market that the 997 will always sit well above, the 997.2 will sit above that, and so on. At a certain point in the car's life, the price of the original options may serve more to make the car a more attractive buy than increasing the real market value exponentially, or at least, that's the way it's worked with the air-cooled cars over time. If you look around at 07 Turbos, they all seem to be somewhere around the same price range, but some original sticker prices were ballooned many thousands higher due to options.
The newer cars -- and I am interested in a 997 myself -- I think will continue to slowly depreciate more from the top down as a result of the evolution of the water-cooled 911 increasing performance, safety and available technology ... i.e., DFI, PDK > Tiptronic, and so forth. In that sense, I think it's likely that a low mileage 02-04 996 will create a bottom of the market that the 997 will always sit well above, the 997.2 will sit above that, and so on. At a certain point in the car's life, the price of the original options may serve more to make the car a more attractive buy than increasing the real market value exponentially, or at least, that's the way it's worked with the air-cooled cars over time. If you look around at 07 Turbos, they all seem to be somewhere around the same price range, but some original sticker prices were ballooned many thousands higher due to options.
04-20-2012, 08:38 PM
#17
Race Director
Thanks Zeus993. Also thanks to Utkinpol for some other helpful comments.
I suppose my situation is a little different. I am third owner on my 997.1, no warranty and just discovered a slight leak in the RMS (crap!). So my cost basis is a bit different. If I keep it I will be doing the LN engineering IMS upgrade while replacing the RMS. About $3500 from what I can tell just for that fix but it would give me peace of mind. Yeah, I know that the IMS failure rate is likely pretty low but would likely go this route if I stay in the 997.1.
Also, my commute is 25miles each way and often the traffic can get heavy so she should get plenty warm on each drive. My weekend romps are longer (and much faster). Love that radar detector.
As for creature comforts I can skip many and not be bothered at all. I never use the Nav on my 997.1 and think that reliance on a Nav system robs you of really learning the roads. If I am lost I can always use my iPhone. I often turn off the stereo to listen to the engine and don't talk on the phone while I am driving in any event. I guess I am a bit old school in that regard.
Utkinpol's comments on maintenance costs (993 vs 997) are very interesting to me. I was assuming that all the extra equipment on a 997 would generally bring long term repair costs to about the same level as a 993 (assuming no warranty on either car). I would love to know more about this topic as my 997.1 ownership has been short and I have never had a 993. I do plan on driving a 911 a long time so long term repair costs are really what matter to me. By the way, the 993 I am currently targeting has about the same mileage as my 997.1 (low to mid 30k mi range).
It is also very hard to break this down into pure financial terms. Cars are emotional items, at least to me and some others. That being said I do want to keep my eyes open and be aware of what I am getting into.
Michael
I suppose my situation is a little different. I am third owner on my 997.1, no warranty and just discovered a slight leak in the RMS (crap!). So my cost basis is a bit different. If I keep it I will be doing the LN engineering IMS upgrade while replacing the RMS. About $3500 from what I can tell just for that fix but it would give me peace of mind. Yeah, I know that the IMS failure rate is likely pretty low but would likely go this route if I stay in the 997.1.
Also, my commute is 25miles each way and often the traffic can get heavy so she should get plenty warm on each drive. My weekend romps are longer (and much faster). Love that radar detector.
As for creature comforts I can skip many and not be bothered at all. I never use the Nav on my 997.1 and think that reliance on a Nav system robs you of really learning the roads. If I am lost I can always use my iPhone. I often turn off the stereo to listen to the engine and don't talk on the phone while I am driving in any event. I guess I am a bit old school in that regard.
Utkinpol's comments on maintenance costs (993 vs 997) are very interesting to me. I was assuming that all the extra equipment on a 997 would generally bring long term repair costs to about the same level as a 993 (assuming no warranty on either car). I would love to know more about this topic as my 997.1 ownership has been short and I have never had a 993. I do plan on driving a 911 a long time so long term repair costs are really what matter to me. By the way, the 993 I am currently targeting has about the same mileage as my 997.1 (low to mid 30k mi range).
It is also very hard to break this down into pure financial terms. Cars are emotional items, at least to me and some others. That being said I do want to keep my eyes open and be aware of what I am getting into.
Michael
(I got sold when in Europe/Zurich a few years ago with a co-worker in a rental car we got hopelessly lost just a few blocks from the hotel without the NAV unit. (All street names look a like in Zurich...Somethingstrasse!) That night back to the car rental agency for a NAV unit and it proved to be a godsend.)
I do not use mine around town and in areas I know -- unless my destination is one with which I'm not that familiar -- but on longer trips I enjoy it because it gives me something to monitor, shows I'm making progress towards some destination, even if it is a town/city just a hundred or so miles down the road (which when one is faced with covering say 2K miles in maybe 3 days means something) and if I get hungry or tired or decide to stop for gas or something else I can punch in a new destination (select a motel for instance or a gas station) and in less time I can dig out my cell phone.
It also gives me some advance warning a turn or something else is coming up that having a map handy can't do. I can't look at a map while driving and I can't stand to pull over and take the time to look at a map, study a map. What I might do though is at night in the motel room I'll get out the road atlas and study the next day's route and put some towns along the way or motels/hotels along the way just to have at the ready should I need this the next day.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-20-2012, 09:05 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
OTOH, good examples, unmolested and in original condition will I think help keep the 993 prices (at least for this set of 993's) high.
That a number of these cars are lost to accidents/theft and what have you works to keep prices up.
And as you touched upon in your post, and which I'll cover a bit more and that is the 'simplicity' of the 993 compared to the 996 and newer models is an attraction for some.
Sincerely,
Macster.
That a number of these cars are lost to accidents/theft and what have you works to keep prices up.
And as you touched upon in your post, and which I'll cover a bit more and that is the 'simplicity' of the 993 compared to the 996 and newer models is an attraction for some.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-20-2012, 10:15 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
The anomaly pricing certainly hasn't disappeared on those. Nor will it on the 993.
04-21-2012, 07:08 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Good points on the advantages of NAV Macster. I haven't been driving much outside of known territory lately. iPhone nav has definitely saved my butt on foreign travel (walking).
Neither of my cars came with a NAV unit but I'm sold on them though I think I'd prefer to buy a car sans the built in unit and add an aftermarket unit myself: Cheaper and it can be moved from car to car.
(I got sold when in Europe/Zurich a few years ago with a co-worker in a rental car we got hopelessly lost just a few blocks from the hotel without the NAV unit. (All street names look a like in Zurich...Somethingstrasse!) That night back to the car rental agency for a NAV unit and it proved to be a godsend.)
I do not use mine around town and in areas I know -- unless my destination is one with which I'm not that familiar -- but on longer trips I enjoy it because it gives me something to monitor, shows I'm making progress towards some destination, even if it is a town/city just a hundred or so miles down the road (which when one is faced with covering say 2K miles in maybe 3 days means something) and if I get hungry or tired or decide to stop for gas or something else I can punch in a new destination (select a motel for instance or a gas station) and in less time I can dig out my cell phone.
It also gives me some advance warning a turn or something else is coming up that having a map handy can't do. I can't look at a map while driving and I can't stand to pull over and take the time to look at a map, study a map. What I might do though is at night in the motel room I'll get out the road atlas and study the next day's route and put some towns along the way or motels/hotels along the way just to have at the ready should I need this the next day.
Sincerely,
Macster.
(I got sold when in Europe/Zurich a few years ago with a co-worker in a rental car we got hopelessly lost just a few blocks from the hotel without the NAV unit. (All street names look a like in Zurich...Somethingstrasse!) That night back to the car rental agency for a NAV unit and it proved to be a godsend.)
I do not use mine around town and in areas I know -- unless my destination is one with which I'm not that familiar -- but on longer trips I enjoy it because it gives me something to monitor, shows I'm making progress towards some destination, even if it is a town/city just a hundred or so miles down the road (which when one is faced with covering say 2K miles in maybe 3 days means something) and if I get hungry or tired or decide to stop for gas or something else I can punch in a new destination (select a motel for instance or a gas station) and in less time I can dig out my cell phone.
It also gives me some advance warning a turn or something else is coming up that having a map handy can't do. I can't look at a map while driving and I can't stand to pull over and take the time to look at a map, study a map. What I might do though is at night in the motel room I'll get out the road atlas and study the next day's route and put some towns along the way or motels/hotels along the way just to have at the ready should I need this the next day.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-21-2012, 08:50 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
993, THAT is what I really wanted, however I was convinced by my mechanics, my wife and other P car owners that a 997 is what I should buy.
993 15 years old, parts expensive...etc....so we bought an 06 Cab/Tip.
Now, HERE is the problem...this car is lost to me..."she" LOVES it and has been using it a LOT
The bright side is that I could probably buy "for myself" a nice 993 6 speed and she wouldn't put up much resistance.....I will say that since the advent of this car joining the family she has become a lot more of a PORSCHE person, reads the PANO, is VERY careful with parking and watches the oil temp. before any hot bursts......
993 15 years old, parts expensive...etc....so we bought an 06 Cab/Tip.
Now, HERE is the problem...this car is lost to me..."she" LOVES it and has been using it a LOT
The bright side is that I could probably buy "for myself" a nice 993 6 speed and she wouldn't put up much resistance.....I will say that since the advent of this car joining the family she has become a lot more of a PORSCHE person, reads the PANO, is VERY careful with parking and watches the oil temp. before any hot bursts......
04-21-2012, 09:06 AM
#22
Three years old and CPO. My 997 has 34,500 miles, bought it with 14,000 and when I sell it, after 34 months of ownership, $12,000 hit. Pretty reasonable for having it under factory warranty the whole time.
04-21-2012, 09:09 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
I find the questions of what the ultimate bottom is just as interesting. Anecdotally for super clean cars:
964 - settled at $25,000
993 - $35,000
996 - $25,000 (and droppin...I can imagine $15,000 as the bottom)
997 - $40,000 (and dropping...$25,000? as the bottom)
04-21-2012, 09:10 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
I do not use mine around town and in areas I know -- unless my destination is one with which I'm not that familiar -- but on longer trips I enjoy it because it gives me something to monitor, shows I'm making progress towards some destination, even if it is a town/city just a hundred or so miles down the road (which when one is faced with covering say 2K miles in maybe 3 days means something) and if I get hungry or tired or decide to stop for gas or something else I can punch in a new destination (select a motel for instance or a gas station) and in less time I can dig out my cell phone.
04-21-2012, 11:42 AM
#25
Drifting
I don't care for built-in NAV much due to prior experiences with it. In 5-10 yrs after the MY... the units are dated and/or starts to fail. Porsche may be better but we had NAV on our old x5. It stopped working reliably after a year and when it was out of warranty it was $1,200 to replace with a refurb'd unit if I DIY the repair. New maps were $400-500. Was an issue/financial hit when we traded in the x5. A new Garmin was $200. The math just doesn't add up. We have NAV in my wife's new(back in '09) Lexus GX-470. You can only input addresses when you're at a full stop and the maps were dated the moment we drove it off the lot. The new(2 yrs old toll roads were not listed). The googlemap/GPS function on my Android phone has been the best GPS I've come across... it's really ruined me for the built-in car NAV's. They're always updated with current maps and it all ties in nicely with yelp and/or other internet functions/searches. So NAV was one of those options I actually avoided when searching for my 911 - overpriced for the value it provides as compared to a dedicated GPS and/or smartphone. I now have a bias against built-in NAV and view them much like 8-track or tape over time... Nostalgic when it works but an eyesore and a potential for depreciated hit when it doesn't when you need to sell the car.
04-03-2015, 03:44 PM
#27
That is the sweet spot for me, most car depreciate close to half of it's original value in 3-4 years. I usually buy CPO, that gives me 2 more years after the original warranty to decided whether I want to keep it after warranty. The 2 to 3 years of ownership will usually let you know if the car is going to be problematic. I brought my CPO 2006 C4S at 50% of the original MSRP, I brought my 2013 981 at 65% of the original MSRP. If you can wait, 3-4 years is the sweet spot. I wouldn't buy a Porsche out of warranty.
04-03-2015, 04:26 PM
#28
Interesting to see how things have changed over this time. But one thing is the same. Those screens and Navigation units don't age very well!
04-03-2015, 07:12 PM
#29
Electronic interfaces in general don't age very well. The fact that Porsche starts out pre aged is a different matter! But I feel using this as a depreciation factor may be unfair. I wouldn't expect the system in my wife's Lexus to be seen in a new Lexus. So what? That's why you can buy a new interface, or a new car!
04-04-2015, 12:28 AM
#30
Electronic interfaces in general don't age very well. The fact that Porsche starts out pre aged is a different matter! But I feel using this as a depreciation factor may be unfair. I wouldn't expect the system in my wife's Lexus to be seen in a new Lexus. So what? That's why you can buy a new interface, or a new car!
I think most electronics age pretty bad! Just look at the old bat mobiles in the 993s. No one wants those anymore. Probably wiser to spend the money on leather and carbon than tech when we buy a car?
