View Poll Results: did YOUR car suffer an IMS failure
Voters: 1656. You may not vote on this poll
IMS failure for your 997 car, Y or N? tell us (yr, 997.1, .2, m96, m97, failure mode)
01-24-2019, 06:29 PM
#991
Yes, you can access the larger bearing in model years 2006-2008 without cracking the case open by boring out the case with this boring tool made by EPS. It creates a larger hole that the bearing can be removed from and a new improved cylindrical roller bearing installed.
01-24-2019, 06:30 PM
#992
Rennlist Member
More details- are you the original owner ? did anyone ever track the car? How is the maintenance history? Hard to imagine no noise and "it was running fine" until you pulled things apart? Are you positive that it is the larger bearing? Is there any way to "flush" the motor then installing new bearing by methods described and running and changing the oil several times? Might be cheaper to just do low level rebuild with nickies etc.
01-24-2019, 06:49 PM
#993
I am not trying to diminish the fact that your IMS bearing is missing several ball bearings. That is scary it itself, but as you stated, the car was running great when you dropped it off at the shop. So The Engine itself may not be "Dead" or need a complete rebuild as indicated. Sure, it needs a really good flush, or several, to remove any metal shavings. Oil pan removal and flush and It may only be a $2000 IMS upgrade fix versus a $20,000 complete tear down and rebuild. I understand your frustration and maybe just wanting to off load the car, but the fact that it was running strong up to the moment you dropped it off at the mechanic for a clutch job says to me that there may be hope in fixing this motor without throwing it all away or taking a huge loss selling and buying something different. Just thinking if it was my car I would solve the ims bearing issue first and maybe get very lucky with a saved motor and stronger ims bearing installed in the process. Just a thought.
01-24-2019, 06:58 PM
#994
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yes, you can access the larger bearing in model years 2006-2008 without cracking the case open by boring out the case with this boring tool made by EPS. It creates a larger hole that the bearing can be removed from and a new improved cylindrical roller bearing installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F21suRIQdvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F21suRIQdvM
Did you see how much play there was in the milling operation in those few seconds of the video where his hand on the drill was moving around? How about the slop in the mounting holes of the plate where it bolts to the case. The RMS sometimes even leak when installed into cases machined by Porsche. We're talking thousands of and inch tolerances required here, and the bearings that center the boring tool just slide into to the tube, no sweat fitting, no hydraulic press required - NO WAY?
Also, where does all the milled metal that doesn't fall out the little hole go?
That whole concept looks like a terrible idea, at least to me. Just as bad as the other solution about punching a hole in the "center" of the IMS shaft on the other side so you can get oil to the bearing from that side, but where they didn't remove the grease seal on the side they punched the hole in.
The solutions to this problem are pretty well defined by now - either rectify it the correct way or leave it alone and roll the dice on somewhere beween a 1%-5% chance of failure.
01-24-2019, 07:06 PM
#995
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It is the larger non serviceable bearing. Even if it was the smaller bearing, the amount of metal on the magnetic drain plug and in the filter would require an engine tear down.
for late night reading enjoyment: https://www.oregonpca.org/wp-content.../ORPCA-IMS.pdf
for late night reading enjoyment: https://www.oregonpca.org/wp-content.../ORPCA-IMS.pdf
Metal going through the motor would be bad, but that's the oil filters job to prevent it. Were you running an OEM plastic filter housing or the LN spin on adapter with a metal filter? With the fresh bypass valve spring in a metal canister filter not allowing any oil to bypass the filter (unless it was really clogged up with metal) and the magnetic drain plug, I'd boroscope the cylinders from the top and the bottom to see if there is evidence of metal being in the combustion chamber and scoring the walls. Until you know all is lost, I wouldn't proceed under that assumption, especially if you didn't have any weird noises, misfires, etc.
If it were my engine, I'd start taking things apart to determine where I see metal and where I don't.
01-24-2019, 07:30 PM
#996
OMG, sorry, but NO CHANCE I'd use that rinky-dink rig to mill the case of my motor.
Did you see how much play there was in the milling operation in those few seconds of the video where his hand on the drill was moving around? How about the slop in the mounting holes of the plate where it bolts to the case. The RMS sometimes even leak when installed into cases machined by Porsche. We're talking thousands of and inch tolerances required here, and the bearings that center the boring tool just slide into to the tube, no sweat fitting, no hydraulic press required - NO WAY?
Also, where does all the milled metal that doesn't fall out the little hole go?
That whole concept looks like a terrible idea, at least to me. Just as bad as the other solution about punching a hole in the "center" of the IMS shaft on the other side so you can get oil to the bearing from that side, but where they didn't remove the grease seal on the side they punched the hole in.
The solutions to this problem are pretty well defined by now - either rectify it the correct way or leave it alone and roll the dice on somewhere beween a 1%-5% chance of failure.
Did you see how much play there was in the milling operation in those few seconds of the video where his hand on the drill was moving around? How about the slop in the mounting holes of the plate where it bolts to the case. The RMS sometimes even leak when installed into cases machined by Porsche. We're talking thousands of and inch tolerances required here, and the bearings that center the boring tool just slide into to the tube, no sweat fitting, no hydraulic press required - NO WAY?
Also, where does all the milled metal that doesn't fall out the little hole go?
That whole concept looks like a terrible idea, at least to me. Just as bad as the other solution about punching a hole in the "center" of the IMS shaft on the other side so you can get oil to the bearing from that side, but where they didn't remove the grease seal on the side they punched the hole in.
The solutions to this problem are pretty well defined by now - either rectify it the correct way or leave it alone and roll the dice on somewhere beween a 1%-5% chance of failure.
Alright, alright ... so maybe it's not a "precision tool" up to our standards... I will give ya that. It's a bit sketchy, but I was just relaying some info that there are other solutions out there!
If it were my car, I would take every precaution and do it right $$$, but not every one is prepared to spend that kind of money.
01-25-2019, 11:11 AM
#997
Are you the original owner of the car? Is is possible that someone previously removed the bearing seal during a previous service ( clutch )?
t could be the angle of the photo but the bearing looks off-center to me. Is it possible that some other event ( over-rev, rod failure ) causing the intermediate shaft to to become unbalanced or bent and then damage the bearing?
t could be the angle of the photo but the bearing looks off-center to me. Is it possible that some other event ( over-rev, rod failure ) causing the intermediate shaft to to become unbalanced or bent and then damage the bearing?
01-25-2019, 01:38 PM
#998
I stand completely corrected. I truly believed that Porsche had corrected this and it was no longer and issue and Porsche had fixed it. I sent the photo to LN Engineering and they confirmed it was the newer IMS bearing. I then asked if I could share their comments and either anonymously or publicly and here are the responses from LN Engineering, who I feel are likely the most credible group to speak on the subject:
Response 1:
Response 1:
Yes sir. That picture is the stock Porsche OE 06-08 IMS bearing. I have seen a number of them fail over the years. Certainly nothing like the Single Row from 2000-2005 but it happens. Being a 997.1, it would either be an M96/05 [3.6L] or M97.01 [3.8L] Engine. The car in question will for sure need a teardown to see the collateral damage but will most likely be able to be rebuilt. The silver lining is they can bump it to a 101mm bore using our Nickies process and have a new 4.0L monster. 
Let us know if you have any other questions.
Response 2:
You are more than welcome to share our comments. Here is what we usually tell anyone looking at an 06-8 IMS car. [Big Bearing]
If you are in the market for a new (to you) Porsche or own a 2006 through 2008 Porsche Boxster, Cayman, or 911 model with the larger, non-serviceable IMS bearing, there is no need to be alarmed or worry about your IMS bearing. The incidence of failure with a 2006-2008 M96 or M97 engine that have this larger IMS bearing is highly unlikely with estimates being about a 1% failure rate, if not less.
We advise those with manual gearboxes that when you have your clutch replaced, it's best to have the grease seal removed off the original bearing to allow engine oil to better lubricate it. At that time, you can reseal the IMS flange and have the rear main seal replaced as well. Tiptronic cars, not having any components that need servicing, should have the grease seal removed off the IMS bearing as soon as possible. Grease seal removal will greatly extend the original bearing life.
For those not familiar with what a sealed bearing is, there is a black plastic seal on the front of the bearing. You would use a dental pick or something similar to pop the seal out of it's groove, which then exposes the bearing to the engine oil. Just be sure not to lose it in the engine when you do remove it! Seal removal is easy - check out this YouTube that shows seal removal on a ball bearing:
Some choose elective bearing replacement and indeed, the IMS bearing can be changed and updated to an IMS Retrofit or IMS Solution, but the cost is $15-20k for a full rebuild including addressing the other known cylinder and rod bolt while the engine is apart. The upside to those who go that route is that the displacement can be increased up to 4.0 liters on 3.6 engines and 3.8 liters on 3.2 and 3.4 engines without much added cost or loss in reliability.
The larger bearing found in MY06-08 engines has the same load capacity as the early dual row, which have proven to be the most reliable of the factory bearings. Time will tell, but based on current evidence, removing the grease seal off the original bearing is the most prudent course of action and we believe that tearing down an engine to replace this bearing is not necessary. There is no need for a direct oil feed for the factory ims bearing as the bearing will be submerged in engine oil once you have the grease seal removed. Likewise, invasive procedures to allow you to extract the oversized bearing that compromise the integrity of and introduce contaminants into your engine are not needed and can actually lead to engine failures.
Additionally, we recommend changing your oil every 6 months or 5,000 miles, doing used oil analysis, and using a quality oil like Driven DT-40, along with installation of one of our spin on oil filter adapters and magnetic drain plug. Used oil analysis when part of your planned preventative maintenance program is the best indicator of overall engine health and can help identify potential problems before they become costly.
Last but not least, drive your Porsche and use it as it was designed for - it will thank you!
If you have any further questions, please feel free to let us know.
Let us know if you have any other questions.
Response 2:
You are more than welcome to share our comments. Here is what we usually tell anyone looking at an 06-8 IMS car. [Big Bearing]
If you are in the market for a new (to you) Porsche or own a 2006 through 2008 Porsche Boxster, Cayman, or 911 model with the larger, non-serviceable IMS bearing, there is no need to be alarmed or worry about your IMS bearing. The incidence of failure with a 2006-2008 M96 or M97 engine that have this larger IMS bearing is highly unlikely with estimates being about a 1% failure rate, if not less.
We advise those with manual gearboxes that when you have your clutch replaced, it's best to have the grease seal removed off the original bearing to allow engine oil to better lubricate it. At that time, you can reseal the IMS flange and have the rear main seal replaced as well. Tiptronic cars, not having any components that need servicing, should have the grease seal removed off the IMS bearing as soon as possible. Grease seal removal will greatly extend the original bearing life.
For those not familiar with what a sealed bearing is, there is a black plastic seal on the front of the bearing. You would use a dental pick or something similar to pop the seal out of it's groove, which then exposes the bearing to the engine oil. Just be sure not to lose it in the engine when you do remove it! Seal removal is easy - check out this YouTube that shows seal removal on a ball bearing:
Some choose elective bearing replacement and indeed, the IMS bearing can be changed and updated to an IMS Retrofit or IMS Solution, but the cost is $15-20k for a full rebuild including addressing the other known cylinder and rod bolt while the engine is apart. The upside to those who go that route is that the displacement can be increased up to 4.0 liters on 3.6 engines and 3.8 liters on 3.2 and 3.4 engines without much added cost or loss in reliability.
The larger bearing found in MY06-08 engines has the same load capacity as the early dual row, which have proven to be the most reliable of the factory bearings. Time will tell, but based on current evidence, removing the grease seal off the original bearing is the most prudent course of action and we believe that tearing down an engine to replace this bearing is not necessary. There is no need for a direct oil feed for the factory ims bearing as the bearing will be submerged in engine oil once you have the grease seal removed. Likewise, invasive procedures to allow you to extract the oversized bearing that compromise the integrity of and introduce contaminants into your engine are not needed and can actually lead to engine failures.
Additionally, we recommend changing your oil every 6 months or 5,000 miles, doing used oil analysis, and using a quality oil like Driven DT-40, along with installation of one of our spin on oil filter adapters and magnetic drain plug. Used oil analysis when part of your planned preventative maintenance program is the best indicator of overall engine health and can help identify potential problems before they become costly.
Last but not least, drive your Porsche and use it as it was designed for - it will thank you!
If you have any further questions, please feel free to let us know.
01-25-2019, 03:27 PM
#999
Rennlist Member
LN engineering - Thank you very much for the insightful responses. My car is a late 2005 build which has the larger bearing 3.6L and will be due for a clutch in about 20k or more miles I estimate. With regard to removal of the seal on the bearing, it sounds like it makes sense. However, is there any factual documentation or testing that supports the claim that this will make the bearing last longer or reduce the incidence of failure? Again, it makes sense and your knowledge and experience in this area is unquestioned, but I am analytical in nature and appreciate real world data points. Perhaps rhetorical, but I don't understand why Porsche would not have done this as this could've been done at no additional cost in the manufacturing process I would assume?
01-25-2019, 03:38 PM
#1000
LN engineering - Thank you very much for the insightful responses. My car is a late 2005 build which has the larger bearing 3.6L and will be due for a clutch in about 20k or more miles I estimate. With regard to removal of the seal on the bearing, it sounds like it makes sense. However, is there any factual documentation or testing that supports the claim that this will make the bearing last longer or reduce the incidence of failure? Again, it makes sense and your knowledge and experience in this area is unquestioned, but I am analytical in nature and appreciate real world data points. Perhaps rhetorical, but I don't understand why Porsche would not have done this as this could've been done at no additional cost in the manufacturing process I would assume?
01-25-2019, 04:12 PM
#1002
Rennlist Member
That's a horrible idea to mill out the block to change an 06-08 bearing. That EPS video would have made a great April Fools joke if it weren't true they make that kit and recommend someone does an invasive procedure on a complete engine like that.
We've had to undo the damage from that process on one customer's engine that failed immediately after the procedure was done on a perfectly health engine. We made an adapter sleeve for the block to bring it back to stock so the customer could have an IMS Solution fitted.
The best thing to do is pull the grease seal on the 06-08 engines and use better oil and hope for the best. The sooner, the better.
We've had to undo the damage from that process on one customer's engine that failed immediately after the procedure was done on a perfectly health engine. We made an adapter sleeve for the block to bring it back to stock so the customer could have an IMS Solution fitted.
The best thing to do is pull the grease seal on the 06-08 engines and use better oil and hope for the best. The sooner, the better.
01-25-2019, 04:26 PM
#1003
Rennlist Member
LN engineering - Thank you very much for the insightful responses. My car is a late 2005 build which has the larger bearing 3.6L and will be due for a clutch in about 20k or more miles I estimate. With regard to removal of the seal on the bearing, it sounds like it makes sense. However, is there any factual documentation or testing that supports the claim that this will make the bearing last longer or reduce the incidence of failure? Again, it makes sense and your knowledge and experience in this area is unquestioned, but I am analytical in nature and appreciate real world data points. Perhaps rhetorical, but I don't understand why Porsche would not have done this as this could've been done at no additional cost in the manufacturing process I would assume?
There is no hard proof, just the application of common sense. We know the ims is submerged in oil as this is a wet sump engine. The 6305 bearing used in the 06-08 cars has the same load rating as the original dual row bearing roughly, so we know it's strong enough. The larger diameter also helps increase the surface speed of the ***** as the bearings operate for their load no where near their optimal speed.
Every bearing engineer that I have spoken to over the years agrees there should never have been a seal on that bearing and that even oil mist, just a few cc a minute, is all the bearing really needs. The problem is that the seals are rated for 250F and that's only intermittently. The double lip gets brittle and fails, allowing engine oil to wash out the grease. That point, what is left of the seal is limiting the exchange of oil in and out of the bearing. When the bearing is changed, the IMS shaft is always filled with nasty oil that has been trapped, made worse by long drain intervals.
We came to this conclusion with the seal removal many years ago, about the same time as Hartech, if memory serves me. That's why the IMS Retrofit didn't include one to allow engine oil to lubricate the bearing.
Many make the assumption that Porsche is always right. Unfortunately, poor decisions are made along the way. Even the aircooled cars had their issues with rod bolts, thermal reactors, valve guides, etc. Porsche could have easily ordered the bearings without a grease seal, it's just a different part number. But again, they shouldn't have put a ball bearing there in the first place and it should have been a plain bearing like on the other side. I find it interesting that when Porsche did their own retrofit kit, they chose to use a sealed single row ceramic hybrid ball bearing - why would they still put a deal on it?
I've said it many times before, but even had they put a double row ball bearing without a grease seal from the get go in all the engines, we probably would not have been having this discussion or the problems would have certainly been much, much less frequent.
01-25-2019, 04:37 PM
#1004
That's a horrible idea to mill out the block to change an 06-08 bearing. That EPS video would have made a great April Fools joke if it weren't true they make that kit and recommend someone does an invasive procedure on a complete engine like that.
We've had to undo the damage from that process on one customer's engine that failed immediately after the procedure was done on a perfectly health engine. We made an adapter sleeve for the block to bring it back to stock so the customer could have an IMS Solution fitted.
The best thing to do is pull the grease seal on the 06-08 engines and use better oil and hope for the best. The sooner, the better.
We've had to undo the damage from that process on one customer's engine that failed immediately after the procedure was done on a perfectly health engine. We made an adapter sleeve for the block to bring it back to stock so the customer could have an IMS Solution fitted.
The best thing to do is pull the grease seal on the 06-08 engines and use better oil and hope for the best. The sooner, the better.
Alright, alright, alright... I already admitted it was sketchy at best!!!
In "theory" it seems like an interesting idea though... you have to admit that at least
Sorry to hear that theory in reality did not turn out as planned... as do so many other "theories and good ideas" in life
Thanks for the insight... consider this like adding the "April Fools" to the end of my previous post!
01-25-2019, 05:17 PM
#1005
Rennlist Member
Charles - thank you for your prompt response and detailed explanation. I am convinced now that I will have the seal removed at my next clutch job, I currently only have 31k miles on the car now. Now I am going to get anxious whenever my oil temp starts bumping high in the hot weather and stop and go traffic ha ha.
I never assumed Porsche is always right as evidenced throughout the years, it just baffles me that with all the supposed 'great' German engineering of these cars that this stuff ends up having the potential to cause major issues when the fix would have been so simple and inexpensive during the manufacturing process. Oh well, one of life's mysteries. Thanks again for clearing this up.
I never assumed Porsche is always right as evidenced throughout the years, it just baffles me that with all the supposed 'great' German engineering of these cars that this stuff ends up having the potential to cause major issues when the fix would have been so simple and inexpensive during the manufacturing process. Oh well, one of life's mysteries. Thanks again for clearing this up.