Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the 'Ring'
10-04-2008, 09:34 PM
#16
Its a good thing that Porsche is worried
I was in the dealership today and test drove a new C2S with PDK. Great car. I priced one out. I just get tired of Porsche tacking on $700 here $2,000 there for everything from bluetooth to the iPod connection. Its good that they have a little competition to compare themselves to. If I can get a chance, I'm going to drive a GT-R just to see what all the fuss is about.
10-07-2008, 06:01 PM
#17
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LOL. There was a blog article a few months back (I forget which site) with a contest to see who could make the "most expensive cheap car" by starting with the base model and adding options. I think a Boxster came near the top. Apparently you can pretty much double the price of the car by adding options.
10-08-2008, 01:53 PM
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I've driven the GT-R before (not on a track) and it is definitely FAST no doubt, but the lack of a manual transmission and the appearance turned me off. Porsche is one of the most profitable car manufacturers out there because they are able to charge an arm and a leg for little options here and there and their customers are more than willing to pay for them.
10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
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Would you guys stop bitching about the cost of optoins? Seriously..... it's laughable.
Is it frustrating what they charge on certain parts or goodies? Sure. You think I like telling you how much it costs with a straight face? No.
But I can't change it, nor can you. So either defect, and go elsewhere and enjoy your non Porsche. Or just live with it- and ENJOY YOUR PORSCHE.
Oh I might add; if you think Porsche is over priced- Go price out our friends at the Ferrari Dealership. -Now THAT'S laughable.
Is it frustrating what they charge on certain parts or goodies? Sure. You think I like telling you how much it costs with a straight face? No.
But I can't change it, nor can you. So either defect, and go elsewhere and enjoy your non Porsche. Or just live with it- and ENJOY YOUR PORSCHE.
Oh I might add; if you think Porsche is over priced- Go price out our friends at the Ferrari Dealership. -Now THAT'S laughable.
10-08-2008, 02:56 PM
#20
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Agree with Likemystoppie. All German manufacturers have long options lists that make their cars more customizeable. They have always had these. Go to Mercedes and you can put 20k of options on a car in a heartbeat. Yes, options make the cars more expensive, but, frankly, that is what the true "cost" of the car is.
Not meant to be offensive at all, but in my view, one needs to look at the price of the car as being what it costs kitted out as you want it, and not just look at the list price. If that makes a difference to the purchase decision then it may indicate that one cannot afford it.
Not meant to be offensive at all, but in my view, one needs to look at the price of the car as being what it costs kitted out as you want it, and not just look at the list price. If that makes a difference to the purchase decision then it may indicate that one cannot afford it.
10-08-2008, 03:32 PM
#21
Last edited by am722; 04-12-2013 at 04:13 PM.
10-08-2008, 03:44 PM
#22
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Hey, Stoppie - I won't stop complaining about options of Porsches as long as PAG keeps making certain equipment which should be standard a costly option. On the new PDK cars for example, you have to buy the sport chrono option to get a sport shift mode. That's a cheap way of increasing the price of a car. I'd rather have the car properly equipped from the start than pay the price in options which HAVE NO RESALE VALUE. I'll pay the same price but a few years down the road my initial investment is still worth something.
As to seeing Ferrari .. dunno. I had a GT2 and then a 430. Both were the same price within a few hundred dollars. The GT2 was a no option car, the 430 was F1, Shields, hi fi sound. Sme dollars. Compare the finish on the 430 to the 996 GT2 and the ferrari made the Porsche look like a VW. The leather alone was so far superior in the 430 that the GT2 came off looking like an economy car. How about the leather accessories that come with the Ferrari, or the tool kit. The Maranello guys have come a long way from the earlier "artisan" cars.
Best,
As to seeing Ferrari .. dunno. I had a GT2 and then a 430. Both were the same price within a few hundred dollars. The GT2 was a no option car, the 430 was F1, Shields, hi fi sound. Sme dollars. Compare the finish on the 430 to the 996 GT2 and the ferrari made the Porsche look like a VW. The leather alone was so far superior in the 430 that the GT2 came off looking like an economy car. How about the leather accessories that come with the Ferrari, or the tool kit. The Maranello guys have come a long way from the earlier "artisan" cars.
Best,
10-08-2008, 04:15 PM
#23
That is hilarious!
Seriously - from a value standpoint Porsche does need a little improvement IMO. That's why I bought used.
My S2000 has standard HIDs - LSD and leather seats for crying out loud.
10-08-2008, 04:50 PM
#24
I'll say this: when it came to buying a Cayenne I didn't bitch about the cost of options. I bought an X5 instead. When you buy a 4.8 they don't charge for leather, wood, footwell lighting and all that other crap- and they actually had an Ipod connection a few years ago. From a value standpoint the Porsche was a clear loser.
Oh and I bought my last two Porsches used. Charging for HIDs is ridiculous and does nothing for Porsche's reputation- especially when they're making 30% on the car.
And a $132K Cayman! That is too funny.
Oh and I bought my last two Porsches used. Charging for HIDs is ridiculous and does nothing for Porsche's reputation- especially when they're making 30% on the car.
And a $132K Cayman! That is too funny.
10-08-2008, 05:37 PM
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Hey, Stoppie - I won't stop complaining about options of Porsches as long as PAG keeps making certain equipment which should be standard a costly option. On the new PDK cars for example, you have to buy the sport chrono option to get a sport shift mode. That's a cheap way of increasing the price of a car. I'd rather have the car properly equipped from the start than pay the price in options which HAVE NO RESALE VALUE. I'll pay the same price but a few years down the road my initial investment is still worth something.
As to seeing Ferrari .. dunno. I had a GT2 and then a 430. Both were the same price within a few hundred dollars. The GT2 was a no option car, the 430 was F1, Shields, hi fi sound. Sme dollars. Compare the finish on the 430 to the 996 GT2 and the ferrari made the Porsche look like a VW. The leather alone was so far superior in the 430 that the GT2 came off looking like an economy car. How about the leather accessories that come with the Ferrari, or the tool kit. The Maranello guys have come a long way from the earlier "artisan" cars.
Best,
As to seeing Ferrari .. dunno. I had a GT2 and then a 430. Both were the same price within a few hundred dollars. The GT2 was a no option car, the 430 was F1, Shields, hi fi sound. Sme dollars. Compare the finish on the 430 to the 996 GT2 and the ferrari made the Porsche look like a VW. The leather alone was so far superior in the 430 that the GT2 came off looking like an economy car. How about the leather accessories that come with the Ferrari, or the tool kit. The Maranello guys have come a long way from the earlier "artisan" cars.
Best,
I understand. But let's compare 2008 to 2008. Clearly, a 997GT2 is much better in terms of fit and finish compared to a F430 Coupe. The stereo on the F430 is the same becker unit they used in the 996. And not to mention the premium's that folks have been paying on the F cars for a looooong time. Now consider the massive beatings the cars have taken in the last few weeks. $100-150 over sticker? Sorry Maranello guys. Aint' gonna happen anymore. Also consider servicing your F car compared to a 997. Porsche wins hands down.
The issue as I see it; is Porsche are almost (notice I said ALMOST) in their own Niche'. So what are you going to compare it to? Seem like everything. I would to, so don't get me wrong. But the point I'm making is that one should look at the 'entire' experience. From beginning, to ownership to trading in or selling off. That's where the rubber meets the road in terms of actual VALUE.
Charging for Sport Chrono w/ PDK annoys you? That's business. It's the same as either getting the 'bar vodka' or the 'Top Shelf' vodka. It's all business.
That's it.
10-08-2008, 06:53 PM
#28
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25+ seconds seems like a lot.. I mean, w/ all the magazine tests, almost all of them show the GT-R is about the same in the straight line compare to a 997 TT, and a little bit faster than the TT around the track, no?! Or those are ALL ringers too?!
It should at least on pace compare to the TT at the Ring, I'd guess.. ?!
It should at least on pace compare to the TT at the Ring, I'd guess.. ?!
10-08-2008, 09:15 PM
#29
OK lets talk about 2008. I've already mentioned the Cayenne- it has absolutely no niche of its own and when you compare it against the almost identical Toureag and the (IMO) greatly superior X5 it's clear that most people wouid agree there are far better values.
How about a 2008 (or 2009) base Carrera against a "base" M3. I know I looked long and hard at the M3 when I was considering a 2009 Carrera S. In my locale BMW offers a much better sales and service experience and the M3, out the door, offered a similar price and FAR MORE standard equipment than a Carrera. Unlike the Porsche, you could honestly say the BMW is "fully equipped".
If I had only that choice it would have been the BMW- hands down. Fortunately for me (who is a Porsche freak and has a 911 addiction) I found a very well equipped used 2008 Carrera S for the price of a new 2009 M3.
If you want to compare a GT2 (or 3) against Ferraris I can agree wholeheartedly Porsche offers a better value. But I can't agree about the rest of the line. Porsche is facing the same sort of competition now that it did in 1990- when it started stuffing money in the trunks of their cars in order to allow dealers to move them off the lots. I know- I bought my first (and last) brand new one then. Who in their right mind would have paid $51,000 for a 1989 994 S2? Porsche and their dealers soon found out- virtually no one.
How about a 2008 (or 2009) base Carrera against a "base" M3. I know I looked long and hard at the M3 when I was considering a 2009 Carrera S. In my locale BMW offers a much better sales and service experience and the M3, out the door, offered a similar price and FAR MORE standard equipment than a Carrera. Unlike the Porsche, you could honestly say the BMW is "fully equipped".
If I had only that choice it would have been the BMW- hands down. Fortunately for me (who is a Porsche freak and has a 911 addiction) I found a very well equipped used 2008 Carrera S for the price of a new 2009 M3.
If you want to compare a GT2 (or 3) against Ferraris I can agree wholeheartedly Porsche offers a better value. But I can't agree about the rest of the line. Porsche is facing the same sort of competition now that it did in 1990- when it started stuffing money in the trunks of their cars in order to allow dealers to move them off the lots. I know- I bought my first (and last) brand new one then. Who in their right mind would have paid $51,000 for a 1989 994 S2? Porsche and their dealers soon found out- virtually no one.
10-08-2008, 10:34 PM
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OK lets talk about 2008. I've already mentioned the Cayenne- it has absolutely no niche of its own and when you compare it against the almost identical Toureag and the (IMO) greatly superior X5 it's clear that most people wouid agree there are far better values.
How about a 2008 (or 2009) base Carrera against a "base" M3. I know I looked long and hard at the M3 when I was considering a 2009 Carrera S. In my locale BMW offers a much better sales and service experience and the M3, out the door, offered a similar price and FAR MORE standard equipment than a Carrera. Unlike the Porsche, you could honestly say the BMW is "fully equipped".
If I had only that choice it would have been the BMW- hands down. Fortunately for me (who is a Porsche freak and has a 911 addiction) I found a very well equipped used 2008 Carrera S for the price of a new 2009 M3.
If you want to compare a GT2 (or 3) against Ferraris I can agree wholeheartedly Porsche offers a better value. But I can't agree about the rest of the line. Porsche is facing the same sort of competition now that it did in 1990- when it started stuffing money in the trunks of their cars in order to allow dealers to move them off the lots. I know- I bought my first (and last) brand new one then. Who in their right mind would have paid $51,000 for a 1989 994 S2? Porsche and their dealers soon found out- virtually no one.
How about a 2008 (or 2009) base Carrera against a "base" M3. I know I looked long and hard at the M3 when I was considering a 2009 Carrera S. In my locale BMW offers a much better sales and service experience and the M3, out the door, offered a similar price and FAR MORE standard equipment than a Carrera. Unlike the Porsche, you could honestly say the BMW is "fully equipped".
If I had only that choice it would have been the BMW- hands down. Fortunately for me (who is a Porsche freak and has a 911 addiction) I found a very well equipped used 2008 Carrera S for the price of a new 2009 M3.
If you want to compare a GT2 (or 3) against Ferraris I can agree wholeheartedly Porsche offers a better value. But I can't agree about the rest of the line. Porsche is facing the same sort of competition now that it did in 1990- when it started stuffing money in the trunks of their cars in order to allow dealers to move them off the lots. I know- I bought my first (and last) brand new one then. Who in their right mind would have paid $51,000 for a 1989 994 S2? Porsche and their dealers soon found out- virtually no one.
While I hear what you're saying about the value of a car- BMW's who are, much more produced then the 911- and offered with 1.9% and various levels of cash back to tempt you into buying- ALL factor in to the REAL value of the car. low interest rates combined with cash back hurt the trade in/resale value not marginally more but signifigantly more then most can even imagine. I agree with you that dealers (including my store) will be stuck with larger then normal inventory levels- it's not just Porsche or the dealers fault for the price of the car. Supply and demand.
Why else would you have to spend 50-150k OVER and above the sticker price of a Ferrari. Sorry, but Ferrari's don't over 200-350k better in performance, or to the average Porsche buyer- VALUE. Even when compared to a Base C2- the new M3 is now just your run of the mill V8 stuffed Euro Sedan. Not like the high strung flickable and race like E46 chassis. It's a gas guzzling and heavy little girl. Sure it's a great car.
-But it's no 911. I'll take a base C2 over a loaded M3 any day of the week. And on the same side of the token, I'll take a tricked out over priced C2S vs an F car. Not just for the price. Or the low maintence cost. But the entire value.
George did you even drive the new 997mkII? That car doesn't feel the same as the 997mkI and it feels light years different then the M3.
The Cayenne is still.............and SUV. I have a hard time getting excited about it as well. We're seeing eye to eye on that. But if I were to buy a Toureg, the only one I'd consider is the V10 Diesel. That thing flies!
The GTS is easily one the best selling vehicles in Porsche's entire lineup. People really identify with it. And all of that - is part of the percieved value.
