(OT) Car buying experience - non Porsche, for sure....(long)
02-08-2008, 12:12 PM
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(OT) Car buying experience - non Porsche, for sure....(long)
Obviously not a Porsche experience, and not a slam on the professionals out there who do go the extra mile and who we really respect for their professionalism…
Went shopping for a vehicle for my son, and as he has enjoyed driving my parts hauler (Ford Escape AWD), he was leaning toward something like that. New Escape is not as good – they lost the rear discs and added drums, no longer stops as good, etc. Looked at the usual sedans (Civic, Mazda3 – we own a 3 5-door and love it – and Jetta – own one of those too from a few years back). Not a fit. He wanted to sit up a bit taller.
Perused the mags and writeups, and took him back to Honda where he seemed comfortable driving the redesigned CR-V. I was not about to own another Chrysler product (Jeep) so this seemed to be the answer. Did my research, got the numbers, called some car contacts to verify the numbers, saw a few good write-ups, built one online, ready to go.
Saturday tire-kicking 101: stopped at local large dealer to see the CR-V up close and figure out if it was right. Son got in, drove around a bit, liked it just fine, liked the ride and visibility, handling, etc. OK, time for me to try to work the deal.
We spec’d one out for the sales guy (all 3 trim levels come as is, all options are dealer installed). Sales guy is nice as can be, patient with my son, patient with me, knowledgeable enough but not over the top. Wrote it all down (at list price!) then I said: “do me a favor, start at your invoice, add the options at your cost, then add your profit line at the bottom. Let’s work from there.”
He looked up a bit puzzled, as I guess not too many folks ask for it that way. He knew I was a car guy, that I worked in the car parts business, and that I had a few connections. What he did not know was that one of those connections happens to own the parent company of the dealership, but I never let on that I had that connection, nor was I planning to use it. I have, however, bought two other vehicles from other dealers owned by this same person, and he did know that.
He lets me sit for a few (usual tactic) while he ‘discussed’ the deal with his ‘manager’….
Said ‘manager’ comes walking over like Mr. Big Shot, nice as can be, but with a glum look of ‘we can’t sell the car at this price’ but here is the price. He proceeds to show me the list price of the car, plus the usual dealer padding: $200 wax job, $400 doc fee, etc. I just look at him and say: “here’s my number (dollar figure), and here’s my phone number. Let me know, we’re ready to buy, and I’m not trying to shop this deal.” We leave, pleasantly.
The next business day I get a call from someone I do not know, who says ”Thank you for stopping in the other day, please let us know if there is anything I can do.” Well, Mr. Manager, sir, did you SPEAK with the sales guy about any of the details we discussed? “Uh, no, sorry, I did not have a chance to.” Well, Mr. Manager, it might help you to know those facts before you call me, so perhaps you can do that, then call me back, please.”
The car in question is 4WD, with some goodies like leather and nav at this trim level, and they consider this a ‘hard to get’ vehicle, so they want full pop or close to it. Fine. But fact is, they don’t have the car we want on the lot, and I know there is a deal to be had.
I get a call the next day from the nice salesman, and I tell the guy I’d like him to ‘locate’ that car and tell me if he can get it within a week or two. Next day the ‘manager’ calls me to tell me the closest one is 5 states away, and they’d have to charge mileage to truck it in and take one out to that dealer. OK, so this ‘manager’ wants near full price on the vehicle, plus $1000 or so in trucking to get it here. Yeah right. I’m shaking my head and rolling my eyes now.
So another week goes by, we’re sure we know what we want, and I’m sure I know what to pay for it. I don’t expect to steal the car, but I want a fair deal.
It’s the weekend, and we swing by for the third time. Less traffic this day, so we get time with the sales guy (wife is with me for this visit, son is elsewhere). I mention again to the sales guy about locating the car, and he is uncertain. He comes back to me with a number that is a few dollars off list, and I’m puzzled. He finally asks the question: how much? I answer with my number and I write it down. Again, I have the cost, the holdback, the dealer profit add in, even the tax. I won’t pay for the $200 wax as I just want it washed. And I suggest that for the volume of cars they sell, they might be able to help on doc fees (by their own admission, they bring in nearly $240,000 a month in doc fees!), or maybe a bit on the labor for the options (neither is a deal-breaker).
Sales guy goes to ‘manager’ on duty. Manager comes back with the ‘deal sheet’ and shows me how selling the vehicle at my price makes them lose $60. I smile, and ask for details. His deal sheet has so many add-on numbers it nearly made me puke. He adds advertising (many dealers do this), their annual holiday party for employees (every ‘deal’ pays into the kitty for the party), all the options at list price again, even more profit for labor/installation of options – get this, $55 to put wheel locks on - and an inflated invoice price. According to the numbers in front of me at that time, I showed him how he makes $1558 on the sale at my price. He said he could not sell the car at the price we suggested, and he offered no counter.
We left. I had given them every opportunity to either counter or do something to earn my business, but these goof-ball untrained inexperienced tower rats could not figure this out. I was dismayed. And the sales guy was still as nice as could be, as were we, when we said goodbye.
Final call: the next day I get a call at my office from the sales guy again, and again I tell him I’m ready to buy, please have his GM review the deal. His hands are tied. 20 minutes later I get yet another call from someone claiming to be a manager. I never met this bozo, but he spews his name by me so fast, I tell him to wait, I need to write his name down. And at that point, I finally say “I just want to be sure I know who I’ve talked to about this deal, in case Mr. (blank) – [the owner and a person I know fairly well but have not name dropped yet] – asks me why I did not buy the car there.”
Ten minutes later another tower rat calls, claiming to be the GM (he wasn’t), and accusing me of threatening his people. WTF? “Sir, do you really have any information on the deal we’ve been discussing, or the facts of my conversations with your people?” Well, uh, no, I just got wind of ….. I stopped him in his tracks. Gave him all the facts, mentioned that I never threatened a soul, and that I did want everyone’s name in my notes in case that chance ever happened when his boss asked me why I did not buy there. He backed off, but that was the final straw. I knew I had gutter scum on my hands, and I needed to move on.
The next day I was picking up parts for business and mentioned something to the parts guy (Porsche) about this vehicle I was looking for, when he passed along a name to me. I call his guy up, he’s the GM at another dealer not too far away, and BAM it was like 180 degrees from the other day.
I mentioned politely that I was looking for this vehicle, this trim level, these options, and really hoped to find the car at a decent deal. He asked me to send him some details on what I wanted.
Within 90 minutes, he responded back to me WITH THE CAR and WITH THE DEAL I had asked for from the other dealer for 3 weeks! So here is the car, less than 50 miles from the original guy, (they did not bother to locate it), AND the dealership happens to be ‘owned’ by that very same contact! One is run like the 1980’s used-car lot, the other a top notch professional place with customer service being the #1 priority.
There was no brow-beating, harsh words, arm-twisting or anything at either place, but the atmosphere of the deal was so dramatically different, I was blown away.
I arrived the next day, reviewed the vehicle, shook hands, they ordered the add-ons we wanted, had them installed, and did not ask for my deposit. Not only that, but they delivered it to my office two days later and we did the paperwork in 15 minutes, and every step of the way the sales guy involved had a smile on his face.
I could not believe how pleasant it ended up. As for the ‘other guys’…well, let’s just say their day will come. But not with my money in their pocket.
As for the kid, well, today’s his birthday (last night), and he was totally stunned to see it in the driveway.
Went shopping for a vehicle for my son, and as he has enjoyed driving my parts hauler (Ford Escape AWD), he was leaning toward something like that. New Escape is not as good – they lost the rear discs and added drums, no longer stops as good, etc. Looked at the usual sedans (Civic, Mazda3 – we own a 3 5-door and love it – and Jetta – own one of those too from a few years back). Not a fit. He wanted to sit up a bit taller.
Perused the mags and writeups, and took him back to Honda where he seemed comfortable driving the redesigned CR-V. I was not about to own another Chrysler product (Jeep) so this seemed to be the answer. Did my research, got the numbers, called some car contacts to verify the numbers, saw a few good write-ups, built one online, ready to go.
Saturday tire-kicking 101: stopped at local large dealer to see the CR-V up close and figure out if it was right. Son got in, drove around a bit, liked it just fine, liked the ride and visibility, handling, etc. OK, time for me to try to work the deal.
We spec’d one out for the sales guy (all 3 trim levels come as is, all options are dealer installed). Sales guy is nice as can be, patient with my son, patient with me, knowledgeable enough but not over the top. Wrote it all down (at list price!) then I said: “do me a favor, start at your invoice, add the options at your cost, then add your profit line at the bottom. Let’s work from there.”
He looked up a bit puzzled, as I guess not too many folks ask for it that way. He knew I was a car guy, that I worked in the car parts business, and that I had a few connections. What he did not know was that one of those connections happens to own the parent company of the dealership, but I never let on that I had that connection, nor was I planning to use it. I have, however, bought two other vehicles from other dealers owned by this same person, and he did know that.
He lets me sit for a few (usual tactic) while he ‘discussed’ the deal with his ‘manager’….
Said ‘manager’ comes walking over like Mr. Big Shot, nice as can be, but with a glum look of ‘we can’t sell the car at this price’ but here is the price. He proceeds to show me the list price of the car, plus the usual dealer padding: $200 wax job, $400 doc fee, etc. I just look at him and say: “here’s my number (dollar figure), and here’s my phone number. Let me know, we’re ready to buy, and I’m not trying to shop this deal.” We leave, pleasantly.
The next business day I get a call from someone I do not know, who says ”Thank you for stopping in the other day, please let us know if there is anything I can do.” Well, Mr. Manager, sir, did you SPEAK with the sales guy about any of the details we discussed? “Uh, no, sorry, I did not have a chance to.” Well, Mr. Manager, it might help you to know those facts before you call me, so perhaps you can do that, then call me back, please.”
The car in question is 4WD, with some goodies like leather and nav at this trim level, and they consider this a ‘hard to get’ vehicle, so they want full pop or close to it. Fine. But fact is, they don’t have the car we want on the lot, and I know there is a deal to be had.
I get a call the next day from the nice salesman, and I tell the guy I’d like him to ‘locate’ that car and tell me if he can get it within a week or two. Next day the ‘manager’ calls me to tell me the closest one is 5 states away, and they’d have to charge mileage to truck it in and take one out to that dealer. OK, so this ‘manager’ wants near full price on the vehicle, plus $1000 or so in trucking to get it here. Yeah right. I’m shaking my head and rolling my eyes now.
So another week goes by, we’re sure we know what we want, and I’m sure I know what to pay for it. I don’t expect to steal the car, but I want a fair deal.
It’s the weekend, and we swing by for the third time. Less traffic this day, so we get time with the sales guy (wife is with me for this visit, son is elsewhere). I mention again to the sales guy about locating the car, and he is uncertain. He comes back to me with a number that is a few dollars off list, and I’m puzzled. He finally asks the question: how much? I answer with my number and I write it down. Again, I have the cost, the holdback, the dealer profit add in, even the tax. I won’t pay for the $200 wax as I just want it washed. And I suggest that for the volume of cars they sell, they might be able to help on doc fees (by their own admission, they bring in nearly $240,000 a month in doc fees!), or maybe a bit on the labor for the options (neither is a deal-breaker).
Sales guy goes to ‘manager’ on duty. Manager comes back with the ‘deal sheet’ and shows me how selling the vehicle at my price makes them lose $60. I smile, and ask for details. His deal sheet has so many add-on numbers it nearly made me puke. He adds advertising (many dealers do this), their annual holiday party for employees (every ‘deal’ pays into the kitty for the party), all the options at list price again, even more profit for labor/installation of options – get this, $55 to put wheel locks on - and an inflated invoice price. According to the numbers in front of me at that time, I showed him how he makes $1558 on the sale at my price. He said he could not sell the car at the price we suggested, and he offered no counter.
We left. I had given them every opportunity to either counter or do something to earn my business, but these goof-ball untrained inexperienced tower rats could not figure this out. I was dismayed. And the sales guy was still as nice as could be, as were we, when we said goodbye.
Final call: the next day I get a call at my office from the sales guy again, and again I tell him I’m ready to buy, please have his GM review the deal. His hands are tied. 20 minutes later I get yet another call from someone claiming to be a manager. I never met this bozo, but he spews his name by me so fast, I tell him to wait, I need to write his name down. And at that point, I finally say “I just want to be sure I know who I’ve talked to about this deal, in case Mr. (blank) – [the owner and a person I know fairly well but have not name dropped yet] – asks me why I did not buy the car there.”
Ten minutes later another tower rat calls, claiming to be the GM (he wasn’t), and accusing me of threatening his people. WTF? “Sir, do you really have any information on the deal we’ve been discussing, or the facts of my conversations with your people?” Well, uh, no, I just got wind of ….. I stopped him in his tracks. Gave him all the facts, mentioned that I never threatened a soul, and that I did want everyone’s name in my notes in case that chance ever happened when his boss asked me why I did not buy there. He backed off, but that was the final straw. I knew I had gutter scum on my hands, and I needed to move on.
The next day I was picking up parts for business and mentioned something to the parts guy (Porsche) about this vehicle I was looking for, when he passed along a name to me. I call his guy up, he’s the GM at another dealer not too far away, and BAM it was like 180 degrees from the other day.
I mentioned politely that I was looking for this vehicle, this trim level, these options, and really hoped to find the car at a decent deal. He asked me to send him some details on what I wanted.
Within 90 minutes, he responded back to me WITH THE CAR and WITH THE DEAL I had asked for from the other dealer for 3 weeks! So here is the car, less than 50 miles from the original guy, (they did not bother to locate it), AND the dealership happens to be ‘owned’ by that very same contact! One is run like the 1980’s used-car lot, the other a top notch professional place with customer service being the #1 priority.
There was no brow-beating, harsh words, arm-twisting or anything at either place, but the atmosphere of the deal was so dramatically different, I was blown away.
I arrived the next day, reviewed the vehicle, shook hands, they ordered the add-ons we wanted, had them installed, and did not ask for my deposit. Not only that, but they delivered it to my office two days later and we did the paperwork in 15 minutes, and every step of the way the sales guy involved had a smile on his face.
I could not believe how pleasant it ended up. As for the ‘other guys’…well, let’s just say their day will come. But not with my money in their pocket.
As for the kid, well, today’s his birthday (last night), and he was totally stunned to see it in the driveway.
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Eric
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Eric
Chief Plug Guy
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2022 GT3 Touring
2009 997 Turbo Cab
2018 M2 6sp
Gone but not forgotten
2004 C4S Cabriolet
1999 C2 Cab
02-08-2008, 12:27 PM
#2
His deal sheet has so many add-on numbers it nearly made me puke. He adds advertising (many dealers do this), their annual holiday party for employees (every ‘deal’ pays into the kitty for the party), all the options at list price again, even more profit for labor/installation of options – get this, $55 to put wheel locks on - and an inflated invoice price.
Jon
02-08-2008, 12:28 PM
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Eric,
You are not alone, I have had too many experiences similar to this. It is amazing how one company will do anything and everything to get your business and another one will have a massive case of "head in ***" disease spreading within a business.
I am also surprised that Ford would move back to drums from disk brakes (in rear) did Mazda do this with the Tribune as well? What's next no airbags and seat belts?!
You are not alone, I have had too many experiences similar to this. It is amazing how one company will do anything and everything to get your business and another one will have a massive case of "head in ***" disease spreading within a business.
I am also surprised that Ford would move back to drums from disk brakes (in rear) did Mazda do this with the Tribune as well? What's next no airbags and seat belts?!
02-08-2008, 12:55 PM
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Eric, glad to hear you and your son had a happy ending, even if it wasn't with the original dealer. I have no connections whatsoever in the auto business, but I've managed to get all the deals I wanted in the past 20+ years. I AWAYS shop around. Nothing personal, just business. Oddly enough, however, my most unpleasant shopping experiences have been with Porsche.
02-08-2008, 01:07 PM
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Never again will I sit in the dummy chair and play ping pong with the "tower rats". Once you know what kind of car you want, the internet is an excellent place to learn what price you should be paying. The only reason I step foot on a dealer's lot is to test drive/learn about vehicles, colors, etc. and then to take delivery. I bought a new Honda Odyssey a couple of years ago and I have a deal on a new 997 due to arrive at my dealer next month. I did both deals entirely over the phone and email. In both cases, my local dealers did not want to be competitive on pricing. Both deals were made with dealers in neighboring states to mine. Of course, I give the sales people who take time to discuss options and go on test drives with me a shot at the sale, but my local dealers are historically out of the running pretty early on in the process. I have had excellent warranty service from local dealers despite the fact that I did not buy from them, so I see no reason to not shop far and wide for a fair deal.
02-08-2008, 01:08 PM
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"Dad, is that you? It's me, your long lost son! Can I have a C4S?
"Seriously, glad it turned out for you.
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02-08-2008, 01:51 PM
#8
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Yea, it really is amazing how difficult some people make it to buy a car. When i got my pilot, i went to one dealership, close to my dealership, and they gave me a stupid high price, and told me that every dealership around gets at least x for the cars. I went to another dealership, closer to my home, they were $100/mo cheaper on a 3 year lease, on the same car. The funny part is, they are part of the same company...
Also funny....last monday, went to dealership close to work, with my wife, while we had the oil changed, etc before we ran some errands. We were sitting in an 08 pilot in the showroom, ours is an 06...saleslady asks if we have any questions. I asked her what was different between the 06 and the 08, she responded with "I don't know, i didn't work here then. Do you have any other questions?"
Also funny....last monday, went to dealership close to work, with my wife, while we had the oil changed, etc before we ran some errands. We were sitting in an 08 pilot in the showroom, ours is an 06...saleslady asks if we have any questions. I asked her what was different between the 06 and the 08, she responded with "I don't know, i didn't work here then. Do you have any other questions?"
Gulp.
02-08-2008, 03:51 PM
#10
...got similar treatment and sales follow-up from a Mercedes dealership two years ago. To wit;
Q:"How did your visit go with us the other day?"
A: "Your salesman had his head so far up his ***, I bought the car from a dealership 50 miles away."
Q:"How did your visit go with us the other day?"
A: "Your salesman had his head so far up his ***, I bought the car from a dealership 50 miles away."
02-08-2008, 05:31 PM
#11
Race Director
I have to admit I am fortnate that I have a friend who owns Honda, Mercedes, Mazda & Volvo dealerships. We have a standing agreement at the Honday dealership at fleet price for any employee of mine. I can't remember signing a contract, even for ordered vehicles, before the day we picked the vehicle up. We've bought 10 Hondas in about 6 years and a Mercedes. They are very easy to do business with.
Buying other vehicles I tend to do my research and do it over the phone. For work trucks I figure out what I want and send it out to tender. No pressure on me and I take my emotion out of the transaction.
02-08-2008, 10:05 PM
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Eric,
Loved reading your post, I can't imagine how these rats operate, how they waste their time and come up with Zero's and they believe they are successful! Glad that it worked out for you and your son was very happy!
Bruce (Apple)
Loved reading your post, I can't imagine how these rats operate, how they waste their time and come up with Zero's and they believe they are successful! Glad that it worked out for you and your son was very happy!
Bruce (Apple)
02-08-2008, 10:25 PM
#14
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There are quite some bad car-salespersons, and there are still few good ones. The key is to (by phone) screening out all the bad ones quickly, and finding the good ones who want to work with us.
I never step into a car dealer to negotiate. I choose the right salesperson and do everything on the phone. It is information age, if they cannot work with a customer on the phone/fax/email, they will not do much better on the floor.
I do want to be in the dealer during its office hour to pickup my car; so I can walk through the car personally, and have them address any issues before I drive it off (off the lot, off the luck.)
Last time when I bought my 07 997S, I literally in-and-out of the dealer in 15 minutes. Everything was done beforehand on the phone. No hassle, no fuss. When I said bye-bye to my salespeson, he smiled and said, "This is the way to do it."
With best regards,
- Alex; 07 997S, 00 986S, 87 951.
I never step into a car dealer to negotiate. I choose the right salesperson and do everything on the phone. It is information age, if they cannot work with a customer on the phone/fax/email, they will not do much better on the floor.
I do want to be in the dealer during its office hour to pickup my car; so I can walk through the car personally, and have them address any issues before I drive it off (off the lot, off the luck.)
Last time when I bought my 07 997S, I literally in-and-out of the dealer in 15 minutes. Everything was done beforehand on the phone. No hassle, no fuss. When I said bye-bye to my salespeson, he smiled and said, "This is the way to do it."
With best regards,
- Alex; 07 997S, 00 986S, 87 951.
02-08-2008, 10:53 PM
#15
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Eric, you are one patient guy! Buying a car is supposed to be fun and part of the fun is the challenge of getting a good deal. But playing with complete morons and ******** is no challenge and no fun.
Congrats on a great outcome - especially since your son was thrilled! Much better ending than that other recent thread with the spoiled kid who wouldn't take the P car!
Congrats on a great outcome - especially since your son was thrilled! Much better ending than that other recent thread with the spoiled kid who wouldn't take the P car!