Le Chef

It's why I was specific about the differences between the two. The 997 has significantly higher levels of grip, but is much less fun to drive because the handling is "safer" and more "numb" than the older cars. Frankly the best handling cars I've driven were a 2.7RS and a Lotus Elise. Neither were particularly fast but the handling on both was very sweet.

Weight plays a part but also the way the suspension and bushings are set up. I'm not a suspension expert but I know I prefer the more alive feeling of the older cars. The trade-off is safety with more airbags etc.

MrBonus

This is why I struggle with "downgrading" to a 3.2 G50 Carrera. Part of me wants that more visceral, attached driving experience. The reason I haven't largely revolves around the depreciation I've already lost in my car and the fact that after over 3 years of ownership, I know the car's quirks, know it's reliable, and have sunk a few dollars into it to personalize it with the wheels and suspension.

texas911

I disagree, the 997 isn't numb, its just a better handling car, sharper more precise, just because its not fighting you the whole way doesn't mean its a good handling machine.

Le Chef

Well I guess that proves there's more than one definition of "good handling"

dD/dt

The other point to make here is cost. If the acquisition cost of the 997c2 and the 964 turbo are the same, the ownership cost of the 964 is liable to be higher, because of the greater number of little things that break and need to be fixed on a routine basis. Even with lower miles, many wear items die based on age and not just miles.

texas911

Well, if the 997 is x seconds faster around a track than a 993, which would be a better handling car?

dD/dt

I think you're pointing out that "best handling" and "most fun to drive" are being used interchangeably here. They're not necessarily the same thing.

Le Chef

Being faster could be due to a more powerful engine, better tires, lighter weight, better aerodynamics. But could also be because it's a better handling car.

MrBonus

Are you implying that the 911's chassis and suspension engineers have built a car that is less capable than cars three generations its forbearer?

texas911

I think you hit nail on head. The 993 is fun to drive, but doesn't mean it out handles a 997, because it doesn't.

Le Chef

That's not what i'm saying. Do you understand the concept of handling? It's about HOW the car drives not how fast it goes. As much as anything else it's a qualitative measure of the driving experience.

A 997S will be faster than a 997 (with PASM and 19" wheels) around a track. Is that due to better handling? No - it's due to more power. The logic of your thinking falls apart if you don't understand the concept.

Le Chef

Definition of handling:

Car handling and vehicle handling is a description of the way wheeled vehicles perform transverse to their direction of motion, particularly during cornering and swerving. It also includes their stability when moving in a straight line. Handling and braking are the major components of a vehicle's "active" safety. The maximum lateral acceleration is sometimes discussed separately as "road holding". Handling is an esoteric performance area because rapid and violent manoeuvres are often only used in unforeseen circumstances.

Notice the difference between "handling" and "road holding" aka grip.

MrBonus

We're stuck in a semantic argument. "Handling" is, in my terms, an expression of available limits and one's ability to exploit them in a myriad of driving situations with respect to directional changes. In that respect, any new 911 blows away any older 911.

As stated previously, you seem to be using "fun to drive" or "visceral" as interchangeable with "handling" and I don't think you're going to get anyone else here to agree with your definition.

MrBonus

Yes, I'm well aware that handling is more than just available grip but this doesn't make your argument anymore coherent.