Ron's C4s Cab & Options Review (huge)
03-09-2006, 07:07 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by gota911
I don’t recall any of the previous posts extolling the performance gains of the discussed options, but I’ll go along. If you are defining "improved performance" as increased HP, higher Torque, improved handling, and enhanced breaking, then you are correct, the sport exhaust will not improve performance. But then, a very low percentage of the available options actually add to the performance of the car. The additional cost options like sport exhaust, wheel options, leather, carbon fiber, aluminum look, NAV, illuminated door sills, seat belt colors, paint color (other than the 4 standard colors), etc., etc., add nothing to the "performance" of the car. But, if they make the car more comfortable and more appealing to the owner, who’s to say they should not have gotten these options?
While NAV may improve the functionality of the vehicle by supplying the driver with additional information, it does not improve the "performance" of the car. It could be argued that Sport Chrono does more to improve performance of the car than the NAV does, because Sport Chrono improves throttle response. HP gains from Sport Chrono? No, not even one more “colt” power.
It still boils down to personal preferences. You want more HP & Torque? Get a 997 S for an additional $10k over the base 997. Want still more HP & Torque? Get the X-51 package for an additional $17k. Want potentially better stopping power? Get PCCB for an additional $8k.
Like I said… personal preferences... to-ma-to…. to-mah-to!
While NAV may improve the functionality of the vehicle by supplying the driver with additional information, it does not improve the "performance" of the car. It could be argued that Sport Chrono does more to improve performance of the car than the NAV does, because Sport Chrono improves throttle response. HP gains from Sport Chrono? No, not even one more “colt” power.
It still boils down to personal preferences. You want more HP & Torque? Get a 997 S for an additional $10k over the base 997. Want still more HP & Torque? Get the X-51 package for an additional $17k. Want potentially better stopping power? Get PCCB for an additional $8k.
Like I said… personal preferences... to-ma-to…. to-mah-to!
i never implied or would imply that every option should add performance to the car.
that doesnt even make sense
i was referring only to the "sport exhaust" option that by name alone implies performance benefits. people usually choose different exhaust systems on the basis of performance benefits. unless they just wanted more noise pollution.
i'm all for using genuine porsche parts, but when there are alternatives available that will not only increase the noise pollution but drop weight and add hp as well at the same or cheaper price i honestly dont understand why anyone would purchase pse. i am also only stating my opinion with the reasons why i feel this way and do not expect everyone to agree. that would be pretty boring!!!
03-09-2006, 07:15 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by ronmart
To me they are just a flat out 10 on the coolness factor, even if they add nothing else to the car. For that fact alone, they are worthwhile options if you have the coin to spare to get them.
i honestly think bill gates would have a hard time rationalizing pse.
03-09-2006, 07:19 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by icon
if you have the coin to spare for pse ($2400 for louder flatulence) then i would think you'd have the coin to spare for a f430, cgt, or fxx. all three sound a lot meaner than pse.
i honestly think bill gates would have a hard time rationalizing pse.
i honestly think bill gates would have a hard time rationalizing pse.
If I had endless funds I would have done the Ferrari F430 Spyder with the stock exhaust.
03-09-2006, 10:14 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by icon
please take no offense, but i do not understand why you bring up options adding no performance to the car
i never implied or would imply that every option should add performance to the car.
that doesnt even make sense
i was referring only to the "sport exhaust" option that by name alone implies performance benefits. people usually choose different exhaust systems on the basis of performance benefits. unless they just wanted more noise pollution.
i'm all for using genuine porsche parts, but when there are alternatives available that will not only increase the noise pollution but drop weight and add hp as well at the same or cheaper price i honestly dont understand why anyone would purchase pse. i am also only stating my opinion with the reasons why i feel this way and do not expect everyone to agree. that would be pretty boring!!!
i never implied or would imply that every option should add performance to the car.
that doesnt even make sense
i was referring only to the "sport exhaust" option that by name alone implies performance benefits. people usually choose different exhaust systems on the basis of performance benefits. unless they just wanted more noise pollution.
i'm all for using genuine porsche parts, but when there are alternatives available that will not only increase the noise pollution but drop weight and add hp as well at the same or cheaper price i honestly dont understand why anyone would purchase pse. i am also only stating my opinion with the reasons why i feel this way and do not expect everyone to agree. that would be pretty boring!!!
07-09-2006, 06:34 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I've updated my original post to include my thoughts after 5 months and 3700 miles with the car. Some opinions have changed (sports chrono) and others have only gotten stronger (PSE & Adaptive Sports Seats). If you still haven't ordered yet, then you might like re-reading post #1 on this thread. If you have, then you can skip the updates.
07-09-2006, 08:21 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
thanks for the update ron! 
one thing i am curious about in your comments is;
"PASM rules! If ever I have a chance to purchase a car in the future with or without it (or something similar) I wouldn't think twice about getting it. It simply rules for the best of both worlds!"
could you elaborate on the differences you feel due to pasm.
i know pasm is in the background doing it's thing but i can't put a finger on a different feel to the car.
maybe if i went back and drove one w/o pasm now i could?
best
jeff
one thing i am curious about in your comments is;
"PASM rules! If ever I have a chance to purchase a car in the future with or without it (or something similar) I wouldn't think twice about getting it. It simply rules for the best of both worlds!"
could you elaborate on the differences you feel due to pasm.
i know pasm is in the background doing it's thing but i can't put a finger on a different feel to the car.
maybe if i went back and drove one w/o pasm now i could?
best
jeff
07-10-2006, 12:38 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
5 months 3700 miles??? 
Its time for a road trip
Where's MJones??? He will be VERY unhappy to hear this news.
Its time for a road tripWhere's MJones??? He will be VERY unhappy to hear this news.
Last edited by Holli82; 07-10-2006 at 12:56 AM.
07-10-2006, 01:29 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by icon
thanks for the update ron!
one thing i am curious about in your comments is;
"PASM rules! If ever I have a chance to purchase a car in the future with or without it (or something similar) I wouldn't think twice about getting it. It simply rules for the best of both worlds!"
could you elaborate on the differences you feel due to pasm.
i know pasm is in the background doing it's thing but i can't put a finger on a different feel to the car.
maybe if i went back and drove one w/o pasm now i could?
best
jeff
one thing i am curious about in your comments is;
"PASM rules! If ever I have a chance to purchase a car in the future with or without it (or something similar) I wouldn't think twice about getting it. It simply rules for the best of both worlds!"
could you elaborate on the differences you feel due to pasm.
i know pasm is in the background doing it's thing but i can't put a finger on a different feel to the car.
maybe if i went back and drove one w/o pasm now i could?
best
jeff
PASM changes your suspension to feel much harder. It is immediately obvious in my car with 19" wheels. You literally can feel the grain of the road through the steering wheel and will get bumps from tiny cracks in the pavement with PASM in sport mode. PASM is great when you are twisty, but good pavement because you get absolutely ZERO body roll or squat. The downside is that the suspension is harsh so if the pavement is poor, then you'll actually have less control so turning PASM off makes difficult road conditions much more manageable at higher speeds.
I can tell a different in PSM being on or off too though, but mainly on a track only. On the track with a wet skidpad when your back end starts to go PSM will kill the gas abruptly when your are in Normal mode with PSM ON. In sports mode with PSM ON, it will let you hang your back end out without cutting power so you will easily be able to recover without PSM ever kicking in. 18 degrees is a HUGE amount apparently because I only had it come on one time when I thought for certain I was going to go around, but didn't because it truly was in Please Save Me mode. Othewise it never intervened, so it was VERY comforting to know that I could have lots of fun drifting without worrying about going too out of contro because PSM would literally save my ***. With PSM off you are free to get a 360 view of the track (check out my google video - search ronmart
).
07-10-2006, 01:32 AM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Holli82
5 months 3700 miles??? Its time for a road trip
Where's MJones??? He will be VERY unhappy to hear this news.
Its time for a road tripWhere's MJones??? He will be VERY unhappy to hear this news.
Yeah, it is time for a road trip but the two that I've had planned thus far this year have been cancelled due to the wife and kids. Yeah, I know I should go without them but I really would rather have them along to enjoy the fun.
I have had a couple 300+ mile days.
07-10-2006, 05:18 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by ronmart
I think you might be getting PSM (Porsche Stability Management) confused with PASM (Porsche Active Suspension Managment).
PASM changes your suspension to feel much harder. It is immediately obvious in my car with 19" wheels. You literally can feel the grain of the road through the steering wheel and will get bumps from tiny cracks in the pavement with PASM in sport mode. PASM is great when you are twisty, but good pavement because you get absolutely ZERO body roll or squat. The downside is that the suspension is harsh so if the pavement is poor, then you'll actually have less control so turning PASM off makes difficult road conditions much more manageable at higher speeds.
PASM changes your suspension to feel much harder. It is immediately obvious in my car with 19" wheels. You literally can feel the grain of the road through the steering wheel and will get bumps from tiny cracks in the pavement with PASM in sport mode. PASM is great when you are twisty, but good pavement because you get absolutely ZERO body roll or squat. The downside is that the suspension is harsh so if the pavement is poor, then you'll actually have less control so turning PASM off makes difficult road conditions much more manageable at higher speeds.
pasm can't be turned off.
it has a normal setting and a stiff setting.
you're saying you like the ability to change the setting to stiff?
i can tell the dif b/t normal setting and stiff.
what i meant was being able to tell the dif b/t normal setting and cars w/o.
also even when psm is disabled it will still intervene when abs activates.
edit: checked out your vid! cool!
07-10-2006, 02:12 PM
#56
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by icon
not confused, but i see what you mean now.
pasm can't be turned off.
it has a normal setting and a stiff setting.
you're saying you like the ability to change the setting to stiff?
i can tell the dif b/t normal setting and stiff.
what i meant was being able to tell the dif b/t normal setting and cars w/o.
also even when psm is disabled it will still intervene when abs activates.
edit: checked out your vid! cool!
pasm can't be turned off.
it has a normal setting and a stiff setting.
you're saying you like the ability to change the setting to stiff?
i can tell the dif b/t normal setting and stiff.
what i meant was being able to tell the dif b/t normal setting and cars w/o.
also even when psm is disabled it will still intervene when abs activates.
edit: checked out your vid! cool!
>>also even when psm is disabled it will still intervene when abs activates.<<
You are probably right about that, but I've not had a situation yet which caused that to happen. Besides, if I'm braking hard enough to have ABS engaged, I shouldn't be on the gas so I don't mind if the power cuts out and it tries to save me.
I can say that when I was doing emergency lane change manuvers (not on video) during the Porsche club drivers skills event that my car amazed both me and my instructor (who naturally was a long time Porsche owner). These things have PHENOMINAL braking power, yet amazing steering control under full braking.
07-10-2006, 03:06 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ronmart
I can say that when I was doing emergency lane change manuvers (not on video) during the Porsche club drivers skills event that my car amazed both me and my instructor (who naturally was a long time Porsche owner). These things have PHENOMINAL braking power, yet amazing steering control under full braking.
When we bought our 2002 M3, we arranged for a Performance Delivery at the SC plant. That includes time on their test track in a similar car (same type car, same transmission) to your won (plus free museum toor and delivery in the glass bays). Part of the track time is several full throttle slalom runs, emergency lane change maneuvers, and ABS stops. One of the ABS tests is a full-brake test from 60 mph on wet concrete into a decreasing-radius turn - and I can tell you the car drives the same under full braking as no braking.
On the slalom and emergency lane change maneuvers, so long as you leave the DSC on you can run full throttle through both in second gear. It was literally impossible to make the car go somewhere other than where it was pointed - if you could drive the cones at that speed, the car would follow. The only mishaps were when people lost the line during weight shift (which is admittedly slightly more than the 911).
The last test was a circular smooth concrete skidpad, which was driven in both wet and dry, with DSC on and off. In both wet and dry, the speed around the skidpad was 7-10 mph faster with DSC on, with no ability to oversteer and slight understeer. If you are comfortable with drifting the car, DSC off and throttle-managed oversteer could close most of the gap.
Anyhow....slightly off topic, but in most cases the cars produced by BMW and Porsche (as well as more exotic makes) have capabilities far exceeding the skill of most drivers - despite our opinions of ourselves.
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07-10-2006, 04:23 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by gravedgr
I can say the same for the M3. As much as p-car owners like to disparage the E46 M3, it has many of the 911's capabilities - even if only at 8/10 or 9/10. If anyone thinks the M3's braking is drastically subpar to the 911, I can only say you probably have not tested its limits properly.
When we bought our 2002 M3, we arranged for a Performance Delivery at the SC plant. That includes time on their test track in a similar car (same type car, same transmission) to your won (plus free museum toor and delivery in the glass bays). Part of the track time is several full throttle slalom runs, emergency lane change maneuvers, and ABS stops. One of the ABS tests is a full-brake test from 60 mph on wet concrete into a decreasing-radius turn - and I can tell you the car drives the same under full braking as no braking.
On the slalom and emergency lane change maneuvers, so long as you leave the DSC on you can run full throttle through both in second gear. It was literally impossible to make the car go somewhere other than where it was pointed - if you could drive the cones at that speed, the car would follow. The only mishaps were when people lost the line during weight shift (which is admittedly slightly more than the 911).
The last test was a circular smooth concrete skidpad, which was driven in both wet and dry, with DSC on and off. In both wet and dry, the speed around the skidpad was 7-10 mph faster with DSC on, with no ability to oversteer and slight understeer. If you are comfortable with drifting the car, DSC off and throttle-managed oversteer could close most of the gap.
Anyhow....slightly off topic, but in most cases the cars produced by BMW and Porsche (as well as more exotic makes) have capabilities far exceeding the skill of most drivers - despite our opinions of ourselves.
When we bought our 2002 M3, we arranged for a Performance Delivery at the SC plant. That includes time on their test track in a similar car (same type car, same transmission) to your won (plus free museum toor and delivery in the glass bays). Part of the track time is several full throttle slalom runs, emergency lane change maneuvers, and ABS stops. One of the ABS tests is a full-brake test from 60 mph on wet concrete into a decreasing-radius turn - and I can tell you the car drives the same under full braking as no braking.
On the slalom and emergency lane change maneuvers, so long as you leave the DSC on you can run full throttle through both in second gear. It was literally impossible to make the car go somewhere other than where it was pointed - if you could drive the cones at that speed, the car would follow. The only mishaps were when people lost the line during weight shift (which is admittedly slightly more than the 911).
The last test was a circular smooth concrete skidpad, which was driven in both wet and dry, with DSC on and off. In both wet and dry, the speed around the skidpad was 7-10 mph faster with DSC on, with no ability to oversteer and slight understeer. If you are comfortable with drifting the car, DSC off and throttle-managed oversteer could close most of the gap.
Anyhow....slightly off topic, but in most cases the cars produced by BMW and Porsche (as well as more exotic makes) have capabilities far exceeding the skill of most drivers - despite our opinions of ourselves.
I can also relate with your point about cars exceeding the capabilities of most drivers, I think that is true of many cars -- especially German ones! Hell, I've even had my E320 Benz on the track and was able to do some pretty amazing stuff and hang with a M3 driver on everything except the straightaway (which naturally was no contest). In fact, I love that car so much that I simply can't get myself to sell it, which is why it is still my DD and not the 911.
At the end of the day, I think the biggest factor is what emotions does the car stir up in you. To me that is a stat that isn't on paper and it is why some people just can't seem to get themselves to buy a Vette. For me my Mercedes stirs that emotion more than any vehicle I've ever owned, including the 911. However, any Porsche does it more for me than the M3 did which is why I chose it instead (despite the fact that I could buy a new Mercedes and M3 for the price of my 911!). For others, they can easily get that from a EVO or WRX which is darn near as fast and still nearly $20k less than the M3, and for those types I'd say it would be a waste to buy a Porsche.
Oh and if I didn't have kids I had to transport, I would have easily done a Boxster S and been happy as can be.
07-10-2006, 05:26 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ronmart
Oh and if I didn't have kids I had to transport, I would have easily done a Boxster S and been happy as can be.
03-23-2013, 10:11 PM
#60
Ron,I've truly enjoyed reading your posts 7-years after the fact. Was searching for Highly Optioned 997.1 C4S similar to mine.I have a Coupe that additionally has x51,PCCB& ALL- Leather options. I am second owner of what was a $140k build in 2006. If u still have yours, hope u r enjoying it...thanks for the great write-up.Steve M...