Worth it to upgrade from a .2 Base to a .2S?
02-12-2023, 12:20 AM
#46
As someone who thought they would have S envy on my 997.2 i haven’t thought about it much at all. If anything the cheaper price point will allow me to do a 4.2 rebuild in the future. I will say I regret sometimes buying a very basic car. No auto dimming mirrors, 4 way comfort seats, no extra leather. I’d pay a premium for full leather and some adapative sport seats.
02-12-2023, 01:08 AM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Gets you kinda close to ‘full leather’.
02-12-2023, 08:30 AM
#48
So true! Will also add the performance difference between either of these cars and Toyota Camry is minimal or even in favor of the Camry. Point A to Point B. In most traffic scenarios the Camry will do it just as quickly. Definitely with less markup too!
The difference between a 997.2 base and a 997.2S 5% technical and 95% ego.
Forget price and value differences. Porsche added a few items with minimal up cost to them and made a huge markup on selling price difference.
As to those talking about sport seats and full leather, neither come standard on a base or an S. They are options for both.
For those of us with stick shift cars, Sport Chrono adds nothing as to performance, but makes you feel faster. You also have to deal with the "wart". PDK cars do get advantages for the automatic transmission cars.
.2 brakes are slightly different but performance is identical. Porsche always does overkill on braking systems.
Actual car performance differences as noted by actual users is zero or minimal at best. As always, those confined to reading data sheets and no hands on experience will argue this.
PASM is an option if you want it.
This is the 5% area.
I will not touch the 95% catagory.
Forget price and value differences. Porsche added a few items with minimal up cost to them and made a huge markup on selling price difference.
As to those talking about sport seats and full leather, neither come standard on a base or an S. They are options for both.
For those of us with stick shift cars, Sport Chrono adds nothing as to performance, but makes you feel faster. You also have to deal with the "wart". PDK cars do get advantages for the automatic transmission cars.
.2 brakes are slightly different but performance is identical. Porsche always does overkill on braking systems.
Actual car performance differences as noted by actual users is zero or minimal at best. As always, those confined to reading data sheets and no hands on experience will argue this.
PASM is an option if you want it.
This is the 5% area.
I will not touch the 95% catagory.
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awestin67 (02-13-2023)
02-12-2023, 01:34 PM
#49
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02-12-2023, 01:50 PM
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I know you’re being a little tongue in cheek here but isn’t the most powerful Camry 301 hp and 0-60 in 5.8? Pretty good for a Camry but pretty far from any 997.2. I know my base 997.2 was the quickest feeling 345 hp car I ever drove. Noticeably quicker than the 414 hp V8 M3 I had just prior to it. There’s no horsepower like Porsche horsepower.
02-12-2023, 02:56 PM
#51
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Fun stuff.
Back in the day, 356 thru 356C , the difference in power between the base or as it was referred to as "normal" and the S (super) was in the range of 30%. That combined with the lighter weight cars really affected the power to weight ratio which is a great measure of performance. (My type 540 weighs exactly half of my 997.2) Enter the first 911 series and the first long wheelbase cars ,1969 , had a 36% difference in power between the base ( T) and the S model. I had the E which was the best of the lot. 30 to 36% difference is a lot and noticeable and worth considering no matter what the advertising people called it.
The selling up theory applies to everything and if something makes you feel better , then it should be worth a price increase. The on paper 10% at best power increase can really only be evaluated by true racers or national instructors. But adding a few features and a $3 (cost) badge painted red will bring in a bunch of 'em.
Fun stuff.
Back in the day, 356 thru 356C , the difference in power between the base or as it was referred to as "normal" and the S (super) was in the range of 30%. That combined with the lighter weight cars really affected the power to weight ratio which is a great measure of performance. (My type 540 weighs exactly half of my 997.2) Enter the first 911 series and the first long wheelbase cars ,1969 , had a 36% difference in power between the base ( T) and the S model. I had the E which was the best of the lot. 30 to 36% difference is a lot and noticeable and worth considering no matter what the advertising people called it.
The selling up theory applies to everything and if something makes you feel better , then it should be worth a price increase. The on paper 10% at best power increase can really only be evaluated by true racers or national instructors. But adding a few features and a $3 (cost) badge painted red will bring in a bunch of 'em.
Fun stuff.
02-12-2023, 03:08 PM
#52
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Floyd540 (02-12-2023)
02-12-2023, 03:49 PM
#53
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I just know I’m whenever I saw an S model I would wonder and eventually trade my base in for one. Knowing it’s overkill for me and minimal, if any, difference for a street car on street roads.
I feel the same way when seeing a gt3 but you have to draw the line aomewhere!
I feel the same way when seeing a gt3 but you have to draw the line aomewhere!
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Floyd540 (02-12-2023)
02-12-2023, 04:04 PM
#54
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Fun stuff again , Rev 1.
On my comments above about 356's, the power differences of 30% are confined to the 4 cylinder cars. ( Normals and S's with the Hirth crank) The 4 cam Fuhrman "Carrera" (there is that word) engine was about 100% increase. Another fun fact is for the 993 crowd, last of the aircooled cars, the S was technically slower than the base Carrera because the engine power was exactly the same but the wide body used on the S had more aerodynamic drag. The marketing guys had really caught on to this game.
Go spend time with your car.
On my comments above about 356's, the power differences of 30% are confined to the 4 cylinder cars. ( Normals and S's with the Hirth crank) The 4 cam Fuhrman "Carrera" (there is that word) engine was about 100% increase. Another fun fact is for the 993 crowd, last of the aircooled cars, the S was technically slower than the base Carrera because the engine power was exactly the same but the wide body used on the S had more aerodynamic drag. The marketing guys had really caught on to this game.
Go spend time with your car.
02-12-2023, 08:42 PM
#55
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GT3 is a whole other ball of yarn.
02-12-2023, 11:03 PM
#56
Yes but a few things to consider.
First, objectively the difference in performance was addressed above. 997.2 to 997.2S is damn near the same as 997.2S to 997.1 turbo and even closer to 997.1 GT3 (heck even 997.2 GT3!) Whether someone cares (or perceives) or not is besides the point.
Two, for many the definition of ego vs performance is drawn in even more pragmatic terms. In those cases a Camry will perform nearly as well or better than a Porsche if the criteria is time from A to B in traffic. So I am pointing out the hypocrisy of splitting the difference as 95% ego and 5% performance. What, from a Base 911 to an S model lol. I think the ego was certified when choosing a 911 in the first place.
Three, I’d love to hear who can add 40hp, not sacrifice reliability and knock off 3 tenths to 60mph on their 997.2 base for under the $10k price difference implied between the two examples here. All while retaining that added value if they eventually wish to resell. I already know the answer…
Finally, I owned and drove a Boxster (yes, an S) for several years while also owning my 911. I’d happily own a base Carrera too (or base Boxster). All are great cars. But we are talking about value here and performance, etc. That lower mileage S could absolutely be worth the extra $15k. Not that I’d necessarily do it if I already owned the base…
Btw, my Alfa 4C has about 240hp and runs 0-60 just a tenth or two slower than my 911. All due to turbo lag so imagine from a roll… Speaking of quick cars for their HP.
First, objectively the difference in performance was addressed above. 997.2 to 997.2S is damn near the same as 997.2S to 997.1 turbo and even closer to 997.1 GT3 (heck even 997.2 GT3!) Whether someone cares (or perceives) or not is besides the point.
Two, for many the definition of ego vs performance is drawn in even more pragmatic terms. In those cases a Camry will perform nearly as well or better than a Porsche if the criteria is time from A to B in traffic. So I am pointing out the hypocrisy of splitting the difference as 95% ego and 5% performance. What, from a Base 911 to an S model lol. I think the ego was certified when choosing a 911 in the first place.
Three, I’d love to hear who can add 40hp, not sacrifice reliability and knock off 3 tenths to 60mph on their 997.2 base for under the $10k price difference implied between the two examples here. All while retaining that added value if they eventually wish to resell. I already know the answer…
Finally, I owned and drove a Boxster (yes, an S) for several years while also owning my 911. I’d happily own a base Carrera too (or base Boxster). All are great cars. But we are talking about value here and performance, etc. That lower mileage S could absolutely be worth the extra $15k. Not that I’d necessarily do it if I already owned the base…
Btw, my Alfa 4C has about 240hp and runs 0-60 just a tenth or two slower than my 911. All due to turbo lag so imagine from a roll… Speaking of quick cars for their HP.
I know you’re being a little tongue in cheek here but isn’t the most powerful Camry 301 hp and 0-60 in 5.8? Pretty good for a Camry but pretty far from any 997.2. I know my base 997.2 was the quickest feeling 345 hp car I ever drove. Noticeably quicker than the 414 hp V8 M3 I had just prior to it. There’s no horsepower like Porsche horsepower.
Last edited by SpeedyD; 02-12-2023 at 11:07 PM.
02-13-2023, 02:16 PM
#57
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So many times they will use it to upsell a higher model or trim level. Like when an Audi A3 is showing a 30HP advantage over a GTI but when put on a dyno the GTI shows a higher crank HP number.
However to me the 997 Turbo IMO is a whole other level.
That torque number should make the car feel much faster, about 150lb ft over a 997.2 C2S.
IIRC it traps around 10 MPH faster in the Qtr.
Going to leave this here too, this aligned with my experience.
02-13-2023, 02:53 PM
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02-13-2023, 03:24 PM
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02-13-2023, 05:25 PM
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I think some of the more salient points in this debate, which I agree with, are...
If you are a current 997.2 base owner, it may not make the most financial sense to upgrade to a 997.2 S, as real-world performance is not much different.
If you are not already a 997.2 owner, you will pay more for an S, but you will likely get every penny back when you go to sell, so certainly not an unwise investment to go big from the start.
For the budget minded, I'm not sure there is better sports car than a 997.2 base for <$50/60k. Well, I am, but I'm not about to bring Caymans into this
If you are a current 997.2 base owner, it may not make the most financial sense to upgrade to a 997.2 S, as real-world performance is not much different.
If you are not already a 997.2 owner, you will pay more for an S, but you will likely get every penny back when you go to sell, so certainly not an unwise investment to go big from the start.
For the budget minded, I'm not sure there is better sports car than a 997.2 base for <$50/60k. Well, I am, but I'm not about to bring Caymans into this
Last edited by 850tgul; 02-13-2023 at 05:26 PM.
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