Is Bore Scoring hyped up to be worse than it really is?
09-07-2022, 01:38 PM
#61
Nordschleife Master
You'd have to be nuts, in love or have FU money to burn to spend $30 to $40 K on a rebuilt 997 engine. In not too many years, ICE new car sales will be outlawed in many places here in the US, and ICE engines in general will begin to disappear, along with the tech and people to support them. You'll never get your money back out of that kind of investment. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Or... ICE engined cars will become extremely valued....
09-07-2022, 01:49 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
I partially agree here as I wouldn't want to cut corners on critical engine components during a rebuild. The risk is just too great. Having said that, yes, FSI seems to provide a solid product but I wouldn't say that others don't. Hartech supplies and races their engines with lots of success on the other side of the pond. We just don't hear about it. Do they cut corners? I highly doubt it. If they did, they would not be as successful as they are. The guys there seem to be very transparent about what they do. I would list their engines to be as bulletproof as FSI. A lot of the bulletproof statement falls to the owner. You better believe it you can kill an FSI motor. It's been done and can be done if you don't take care of the motor.
09-07-2022, 01:54 PM
#63
The odds of the “legacy” oil/gas infrastructure being fully phased out and/or ICE vehicles being broadly banned in the US is effectively nil within the next 30 years.
Looking beyond that, it starts to tip towards being more probable (with a lot of caveats).
A long term investment horizon is 10+ years (more than one cycle) and an equity long-term cycle is maybe 30 years. In the next 15-20 years you could see the value of lower production ICE cars double, triple, quadruple etc. They could drop too but the end of ICE is unlikely to be a consideration for another 15+ years…
Looking beyond that, it starts to tip towards being more probable (with a lot of caveats).
A long term investment horizon is 10+ years (more than one cycle) and an equity long-term cycle is maybe 30 years. In the next 15-20 years you could see the value of lower production ICE cars double, triple, quadruple etc. They could drop too but the end of ICE is unlikely to be a consideration for another 15+ years…
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09-07-2022, 01:58 PM
#64
As for thread topic, for 997.2 cars the risk is overstated if anyone is seriously considering it as a risk. If it were a risk you would have more variety of remedial alternatives and pricing would drop plus the used market would look very different.
For 997.1 it is a small but more meaningful risk. But then harder to break out that risk vs IMS.
Note that when you assess risk is needs to be vs some baseline notion of risk. So many cars have risks of one issue or another and a finite expected operating life. It is therefore only the incremental risk that bears assessment or consideration and again for 997.2 it is effectively nil.
For 997.1 it is a small but more meaningful risk. But then harder to break out that risk vs IMS.
Note that when you assess risk is needs to be vs some baseline notion of risk. So many cars have risks of one issue or another and a finite expected operating life. It is therefore only the incremental risk that bears assessment or consideration and again for 997.2 it is effectively nil.
09-07-2022, 01:58 PM
#65
If it looked like I implied Hartech was cutting corners, I definitely didn't mean to. From everything I've seen, they do high quality builds. I do also think the cost figures getting tossed around in this thread are not equal comparisons. A $15k rebuild is likely a 'like for like with sleeves' build--no increase in displacement, head work, etc. I don't have any real numbers, but am pretty sure the Hartech equivalent to a FSI stage 2 is going to be a lot more than $15k.
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09-07-2022, 02:09 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't know to what extent but other options exist. Call a few shops in your area and ask about rebuild options. You might be surprised how many offer the service but do not advertise as much as others. Many shops support cars that are tracked regularly and service race cars. Engine rebuild service is a must.
Last edited by Carreralicious; 09-07-2022 at 02:11 PM.
09-07-2022, 02:30 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Powertech, BodyMotion, Roc Auto, Deman Motorsports to name a just a few race/Porsche specialty shops within an hour more/less or so from us in North Jersey . There are definitely more, those just came to the top of my head. Not sure how their builds would equate to an FSI build, but they would be viable alternatives I would think.
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Carreralicious (09-07-2022)
09-07-2022, 03:53 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
Powertech, BodyMotion, Roc Auto, Deman Motorsports to name a just a few race/Porsche specialty shops within an hour more/less or so from us in North Jersey . There are definitely more, those just came to the top of my head. Not sure how their builds would equate to an FSI build, but they would be viable alternatives I would think.
09-07-2022, 04:20 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Do you ever get your money back on any 'investment' in a motor vehicle? Twice in my life have I sold something with a motor in it for more than I paid for it, and when I add up the spend on upgrades, I may have come out $10 ahead on one of those two, but not on the other. Unless you're a serious 'buy and hold' collector, just about everything that goes vroom is a money-losing proposition.
09-07-2022, 04:54 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
That's a very good observation and I agree here. I don't think FSI even offers a stock level rebuild anymore. Everything has a bump in displacement and other improvements. With that I think there is and should be an opportunity to fill that need and I think Hartech does that in Europe and has been successful with it. For me, I have little desire for more power. Give me a stock level rebuild with nikasil liners in a dependable package for $15k and I'd be as happy as can be. I wonder how many people with built engines actually exploit all that power...
https://lnengineering.com/products/w...ins-clips.html
That doesn't include head work, crank polishing, bearings, timing chains, tensioners, seals, and all the other "while were in there" parts. With a DIY and self-control, you can probably keep it at $12k for a minimum comprehensive rebuild these days. More likely we'll spend more as most of us don't have real good self-control when it comes to these cars. Paying someone else to do it get's you up in the $20k range I'd estimate.
Only way you get a non-DIY rebuild around/under $15k is to use steel sleeves and/or reuse lots of questionable parts.
09-07-2022, 11:26 PM
#71
that's actually part of my point. For a seriously diminishing asset like a car (and I know Porsches are different to some extent - I did make a very healthy return on a special 928 last year) it doesn't make sense to put that much into a new engine. You could sell the broken car for $15 or $20 K, take the $30 to $40 K you would have spent on a new engine, add the sale returns from the broken car, and just get another one. Not all 997's are going for BaT prices.
Last edited by bgoetz; 09-07-2022 at 11:28 PM.
09-07-2022, 11:45 PM
#72
IDK, I bought my 997 when prices were low and what I paid + my FSI build I will be less than I could have bought anything else that would interest me over my 997 with the factory motor let alone a built 4.0. I will let you know what it would take to trade in the FSI built 997 once I get to drive it 😁
Last edited by jbkusa; 09-08-2022 at 07:52 AM.
09-08-2022, 04:01 AM
#73
Nordschleife Master
Even new water pumps have been known to fail though, so I’m not sure why it would be a requirement to replace it. It’s their choice to offer their engines the way they want to though. I get that they want to maximize profits and don’t blame them for that. I just hope other shops get into the game too so that it benefits owners who would like other repair options when needed. If there were other options besides a $40K rebuild, there would be a lot less fear in purchasing these cars overall (and keeping them) as well as making them easier to sell once you’re ready to move on.
You'd have to be nuts, in love or have FU money to burn to spend $30 to $40 K on a rebuilt 997 engine. In not too many years, ICE new car sales will be outlawed in many places here in the US, and ICE engines in general will begin to disappear, along with the tech and people to support them. You'll never get your money back out of that kind of investment. It just doesn't make sense to me.
09-08-2022, 06:54 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
I know. Different shops have different policies though. Some make sense. Others don't. All about $$. Some engine rebuilders insist on all components of the engine being replaced with new parts rather than reusing recently replaced parts such as a brand new water pump that may have 200 miles on it for example. I guess the argument is that they don't want their rebuilt engine "contaminated" by parts they had no control over. How the part was sourced and how it was installed and maintained.
Pretty much what I was thinking too. Reading fairly recent posts on the subject, hasn't the typical rebuild cost, even for a 4.0 been somewhere in the $20K to $25K range, maybe reaching towards $30K for the very best. But $40K? May well have missed it but I can't recall reading about anyone paying anything starting with a 3...never mind a 4 for a 997 engine rebuild. Again, even for a quality 4.0 rebuild.
Pretty much what I was thinking too. Reading fairly recent posts on the subject, hasn't the typical rebuild cost, even for a 4.0 been somewhere in the $20K to $25K range, maybe reaching towards $30K for the very best. But $40K? May well have missed it but I can't recall reading about anyone paying anything starting with a 3...never mind a 4 for a 997 engine rebuild. Again, even for a quality 4.0 rebuild.
But….I also picked up mine several years ago when the 997 was essentially at the bottom of the market for 32k. So at the end of the day with all the other things I’ve done to it, I will be around 71k all in…not bad for a well sorted 997 with a “brand new” 4.0L FSI Stage II +. Pretty dang good value if you ask me.
But I didn’t do this to eventually sell, I love the 997 and as most of us on these forums agree that it is the sweet spot of the modern Porsche. I expect this car will forever be in my stable and an heirloom to my son.
09-08-2022, 07:03 PM
#75
Mine is at FSI now, due in October and I’m coming in at just under 35k but I got a Stage II with every possible performance option and some other “while you are there” upgrades.
But….I also picked up mine several years ago when the 997 was essentially at the bottom of the market for 32k. So at the end of the day with all the other things I’ve done to it, I will be around 71k all in…not bad for a well sorted 997 with a “brand new” 4.0L FSI Stage II +. Pretty dang good value if you ask me.
But I didn’t do this to eventually sell, I love the 997 and as most of us on these forums agree that it is the sweet spot of the modern Porsche. I expect this car will forever be in my stable and an heirloom to my son.
But….I also picked up mine several years ago when the 997 was essentially at the bottom of the market for 32k. So at the end of the day with all the other things I’ve done to it, I will be around 71k all in…not bad for a well sorted 997 with a “brand new” 4.0L FSI Stage II +. Pretty dang good value if you ask me.
But I didn’t do this to eventually sell, I love the 997 and as most of us on these forums agree that it is the sweet spot of the modern Porsche. I expect this car will forever be in my stable and an heirloom to my son.
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Scalp_em (09-09-2022)