Is Bore Scoring hyped up to be worse than it really is?
09-06-2022, 01:46 PM
#46
I understand that there are parts that absolutely shouldn't be reused. That said, if within last 12-24 months I installed all new OEM parts like, injectors, low temp t-stat, water pump, alternator, AOS and similar parts why am I forced to get new ones again? Would love to hear the logic on this? If so, can I get me 12 month old injectors back or are they being "thrown away"?
I believe there are two types of customers and engine builders out there and you need to find your match. There are people that don't care about the details, the why, the how and unfortunately how much. For those customers there are builders that do things the way they do and are not willing to be flexible on anything. Period. There are also technically savvy customers that may ask technical questions and understand why a decision about something is being made. For those customers there are builders that are ok with an explanation around why things are being done and welcome the involvement. There are plenty of shops that rebuild engines, however, they all don't advertise their services. So unless you seek them out and start having conversations you might not know what's available in your own backyard!
I believe there are two types of customers and engine builders out there and you need to find your match. There are people that don't care about the details, the why, the how and unfortunately how much. For those customers there are builders that do things the way they do and are not willing to be flexible on anything. Period. There are also technically savvy customers that may ask technical questions and understand why a decision about something is being made. For those customers there are builders that are ok with an explanation around why things are being done and welcome the involvement. There are plenty of shops that rebuild engines, however, they all don't advertise their services. So unless you seek them out and start having conversations you might not know what's available in your own backyard!
The following users liked this post:
Carreralicious (09-06-2022)
09-06-2022, 02:01 PM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Ok, but what if the owner of the engine that needs the rebuild just put in a new water pump or injectors, for example, why do they have to get another new set if they don’t need it? And what do you mean “production of these engines are going down, not up, and so are the prices?” You mean that prices are going up, right? Are you hearing that the UK builders who allow customers to bypass installing new ancillary components like water pumps and injectors are seeing their customers coming back with more failures again? On the contrary, I read many cases where they are happy with their services. I’m just wondering why there aren’t other options out there to do what the customer wants instead of just offering one way or the highway?
And aren’t there less and less air cooled engines out there too? Or even 986/996 engines out there? Why aren’t their rebuilds also in the $40K range? Just curious.
And aren’t there less and less air cooled engines out there too? Or even 986/996 engines out there? Why aren’t their rebuilds also in the $40K range? Just curious.
09-06-2022, 02:40 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The following users liked this post:
Graufuchs (09-06-2022)
09-06-2022, 03:36 PM
#49
Instructor
Has anyone shipped from US to Hartech? Seems crazy at the outset, but after following the Hartech folks on FB, I would ship an engine to them in a heartbeat if not super crazy expensive.
09-06-2022, 03:43 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think I’ve read of someone here who did do that actually but can’t remember the post. It is an interesting proposition since their cost is like half of what the US alternative is.
09-06-2022, 03:58 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I understand that there are parts that absolutely shouldn't be reused. That said, if within last 12-24 months I installed all new OEM parts like, injectors, low temp t-stat, water pump, alternator, AOS and similar parts why am I forced to get new ones again? Would love to hear the logic on this? If so, can I get me 12 month old injectors back or are they being "thrown away"?
I believe there are two types of customers and engine builders out there and you need to find your match. There are people that don't care about the details, the why, the how and unfortunately how much. For those customers there are builders that do things the way they do and are not willing to be flexible on anything. Period. There are also technically savvy customers that may ask technical questions and understand why a decision about something is being made. For those customers there are builders that are ok with an explanation around why things are being done and welcome the involvement. There are plenty of shops that rebuild engines, however, they all don't advertise their services. So unless you seek them out and start having conversations you might not know what's available in your own backyard!
I believe there are two types of customers and engine builders out there and you need to find your match. There are people that don't care about the details, the why, the how and unfortunately how much. For those customers there are builders that do things the way they do and are not willing to be flexible on anything. Period. There are also technically savvy customers that may ask technical questions and understand why a decision about something is being made. For those customers there are builders that are ok with an explanation around why things are being done and welcome the involvement. There are plenty of shops that rebuild engines, however, they all don't advertise their services. So unless you seek them out and start having conversations you might not know what's available in your own backyard!
Last edited by Carreralicious; 09-06-2022 at 04:00 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Houndstooth (09-06-2022)
09-06-2022, 09:30 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
09-06-2022, 10:23 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
I think the difference here is in what each person is looking for. Jake and the team at FSI try to build the most bulletproof engines possible, addressing all the modes of failure they can on the the M96/M97 platform. While every performance build has its risks, most of the people I've seen with FSI engines are those that want to keep their cars for a long period of time and want to do an engine build one time.
One of the worst things I can think of happening would be to spend $15k on a 'just fix what's broken' engine build, then end up spending another $15k a year to a few years later when the next component in line fails. I'd rather spend more and do it one time. I did this on my '04 V-Rod--I spent $7k on an engine build in 2009 (on a bike that was about $17k in 2004), which has given me a bulletproof motor for the last 13 years that has 20% more HP than stock, can both do repeated 500+ mile days on the road, and has held up to increasingly silly amounts of nitrous oxide over the past 4 years. I could have done a budget build in 2009, forgoing forged pistons, stainless steel valves, better heads, etc, but would probably be on my second or third rebuild by now, and likely would not have had the enjoyment I have for the past 13 years. $500/year (minus about $500 in lifetime dyno shootout winnings) is a good deal for a hobby in my book.
I'm wondering if the intersection of high complexity and low overall rebuild volume for the M96/M97 engines just doesn't support a big enough universe of engine builders in the US to give people that want 'good enough for now' those options.
One of the worst things I can think of happening would be to spend $15k on a 'just fix what's broken' engine build, then end up spending another $15k a year to a few years later when the next component in line fails. I'd rather spend more and do it one time. I did this on my '04 V-Rod--I spent $7k on an engine build in 2009 (on a bike that was about $17k in 2004), which has given me a bulletproof motor for the last 13 years that has 20% more HP than stock, can both do repeated 500+ mile days on the road, and has held up to increasingly silly amounts of nitrous oxide over the past 4 years. I could have done a budget build in 2009, forgoing forged pistons, stainless steel valves, better heads, etc, but would probably be on my second or third rebuild by now, and likely would not have had the enjoyment I have for the past 13 years. $500/year (minus about $500 in lifetime dyno shootout winnings) is a good deal for a hobby in my book.
I'm wondering if the intersection of high complexity and low overall rebuild volume for the M96/M97 engines just doesn't support a big enough universe of engine builders in the US to give people that want 'good enough for now' those options.
09-07-2022, 04:15 AM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Ok, but what if the owner of the engine that needs the rebuild just put in a new water pump or injectors, for example, why do they have to get another new set if they don’t need it? And what do you mean “production of these engines are going down, not up, and so are the prices?” You mean that prices are going up, right? Are you hearing that the UK builders who allow customers to bypass installing new ancillary components like water pumps and injectors are seeing their customers coming back with more failures again? On the contrary, I read many cases where they are happy with their services. I’m just wondering why there aren’t other options out there to do what the customer wants instead of just offering one way or the highway?
And aren’t there less and less air cooled engines out there too? Or even 986/996 engines out there? Why aren’t their rebuilds also in the $40K range? Just curious.
And aren’t there less and less air cooled engines out there too? Or even 986/996 engines out there? Why aren’t their rebuilds also in the $40K range? Just curious.
That said, if some of these parts have been replaced recently and the customer has proof of it, it would seem reasonable that some kind of written agreement signed by both parties could be reached where the shop rebuilding the engine would not be held responsible for any engine failure due to failure of the parts recently replaced by the owner. Unless of course the engine rebuilder has a policy of either doing it all rather than picking out used parts and putting them back with the rebuilt engine.
09-07-2022, 07:09 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Good points. Was just going to say, on a $25K or $30K engine rebuild, why skimp on small items like a water pump, injectors, coils or whatever? But if all or any of these "small" items have been replaced recently, why not reuse them if in almost new condition? Could amount to thousands of $ spent on parts just recently paid for. Yes, a water pump going bad without the engine being shut down in short order could result in a good, rebuilt engine going bad so I can see the rebuilder's concern here.
That said, if some of these parts have been replaced recently and the customer has proof of it, it would seem reasonable that some kind of written agreement signed by both parties could be reached where the shop rebuilding the engine would not be held responsible for any engine failure due to failure of the parts recently replaced by the owner. Unless of course the engine rebuilder has a policy of either doing it all rather than picking out used parts and putting them back with the rebuilt engine.
That said, if some of these parts have been replaced recently and the customer has proof of it, it would seem reasonable that some kind of written agreement signed by both parties could be reached where the shop rebuilding the engine would not be held responsible for any engine failure due to failure of the parts recently replaced by the owner. Unless of course the engine rebuilder has a policy of either doing it all rather than picking out used parts and putting them back with the rebuilt engine.
Last edited by Carreralicious; 09-07-2022 at 07:16 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Houndstooth (09-07-2022)
09-07-2022, 10:07 AM
#56
Three Wheelin'
The cost of automotive labor is for whatever reason much cheaper in the UK than in the USA. The same phenomenon is showing up over at the Ferrari board where I often hang out. An timing belt service on a F355 in the US runs $7000 and only $3500 in the UK. The amount of work is the same, they don't cut corner.
The following 2 users liked this post by yelcab:
Carreralicious (09-07-2022),
rtl5009 (09-07-2022)
09-07-2022, 01:02 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Even new water pumps have been known to fail though, so I’m not sure why it would be a requirement to replace it. It’s their choice to offer their engines the way they want to though. I get that they want to maximize profits and don’t blame them for that. I just hope other shops get into the game too so that it benefits owners who would like other repair options when needed. If there were other options besides a $40K rebuild, there would be a lot less fear in purchasing these cars overall (and keeping them) as well as making them easier to sell once you’re ready to move on.
The following users liked this post:
8KaboveMSL (09-11-2022)
09-07-2022, 01:08 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
You'd have to be nuts, in love or have FU money to burn to spend $30 to $40 K on a rebuilt 997 engine. In not too many years, ICE new car sales will be outlawed in many places here in the US, and ICE engines in general will begin to disappear, along with the tech and people to support them. You'll never get your money back out of that kind of investment. It just doesn't make sense to me.
09-07-2022, 01:11 PM
#59
I think the difference here is in what each person is looking for. Jake and the team at FSI try to build the most bulletproof engines possible, addressing all the modes of failure they can on the the M96/M97 platform. While every performance build has its risks, most of the people I've seen with FSI engines are those that want to keep their cars for a long period of time and want to do an engine build one time.
One of the worst things I can think of happening would be to spend $15k on a 'just fix what's broken' engine build, then end up spending another $15k a year to a few years later when the next component in line fails. I'd rather spend more and do it one time. I did this on my '04 V-Rod--I spent $7k on an engine build in 2009 (on a bike that was about $17k in 2004), which has given me a bulletproof motor for the last 13 years that has 20% more HP than stock, can both do repeated 500+ mile days on the road, and has held up to increasingly silly amounts of nitrous oxide over the past 4 years. I could have done a budget build in 2009, forgoing forged pistons, stainless steel valves, better heads, etc, but would probably be on my second or third rebuild by now, and likely would not have had the enjoyment I have for the past 13 years. $500/year (minus about $500 in lifetime dyno shootout winnings) is a good deal for a hobby in my book.
I'm wondering if the intersection of high complexity and low overall rebuild volume for the M96/M97 engines just doesn't support a big enough universe of engine builders in the US to give people that want 'good enough for now' those options.
One of the worst things I can think of happening would be to spend $15k on a 'just fix what's broken' engine build, then end up spending another $15k a year to a few years later when the next component in line fails. I'd rather spend more and do it one time. I did this on my '04 V-Rod--I spent $7k on an engine build in 2009 (on a bike that was about $17k in 2004), which has given me a bulletproof motor for the last 13 years that has 20% more HP than stock, can both do repeated 500+ mile days on the road, and has held up to increasingly silly amounts of nitrous oxide over the past 4 years. I could have done a budget build in 2009, forgoing forged pistons, stainless steel valves, better heads, etc, but would probably be on my second or third rebuild by now, and likely would not have had the enjoyment I have for the past 13 years. $500/year (minus about $500 in lifetime dyno shootout winnings) is a good deal for a hobby in my book.
I'm wondering if the intersection of high complexity and low overall rebuild volume for the M96/M97 engines just doesn't support a big enough universe of engine builders in the US to give people that want 'good enough for now' those options.
I just hope other shops get into the game too so that it benefits owners who would like other repair options when needed. If there were other options besides a $40K rebuild, there would be a lot less fear in purchasing these cars overall (and keeping them) as well as making them easier to sell once you’re ready to move on.
The following users liked this post:
Houndstooth (09-07-2022)
09-07-2022, 01:13 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Do you ever get your money back on any 'investment' in a motor vehicle? Twice in my life have I sold something with a motor in it for more than I paid for it, and when I add up the spend on upgrades, I may have come out $10 ahead on one of those two, but not on the other. Unless you're a serious 'buy and hold' collector, just about everything that goes vroom is a money-losing proposition.