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Good question. Sorry if this answer is too long. The short version is I don't know. I know that when I purchased the vehicle a few months ago as my first Porsche, it was not my intent or belief that I'd have to spend almost that much money over again to put in a new (albeit amazing) engine. I was hoping I could daily drive it for perhaps up to a few years, spend appropriately to keep it in good operating condition, and enjoy it along the way. And sell it at the end, still in good operating condition. So to answer your question, I hope the engine's condition is not going to degrade quickly, but instead quite slowly. So that I can enjoy it, as can its next owner and so on. And photos would hopefully help me understand if this is possible, i.e. if I can see anything changing.
Full disclaimer: aside from this being my first Porsche, I've also never owned a car this age. I've had a habit of mostly buying new cars. I am not suggesting that is the smart choice, it's just what I have done. So the whole concept of starting down a road towards needing an engine rebuild (just a question of when) is completely unknown to me and quite scary. I've never owned a vehicle that had that kind of expensive work done to it.
Then follow Petza’s earlier advice on oil and just enjoy the car, don’t give scoring another thought until the car starts having issues (knocking, smoking, consuming stupid amounts of oil). Hopefully once you do have issues you are in a position where you can either pay for a rebuild or are ok with taking a hit on resale.
This is what owning a more “exotic” sports car is though, they all have potentially expensive repairs and services. Some more expensive, others less expensive, some more likely, others less likely. The reality is that nothing is certain with any car, so there is always risk in having an older vehicle with no warranty.
Not to drive this conversation into the ground but since on the subject of high mileage engine slight scoring, what should be considered "normal" scoring on a 120K engine?
I have seen many photo examples of slightly scored engines over the years that run fine, with no oil consumption and other members including a couple of engine re-builders have remarked that is "normal" or "ok" to have slight scoring and it is a result of running time/age. I seem to remember a comment that "all" engines have scoring after time.
This is back a couple years ago when the subject was on fire. Not looking to start another Bore Scoring debate just curious what would be considered average or normal slight scoring?
Last edited by groovzilla; 04-04-2022 at 02:11 PM.
Got the UOA back, sharing for anyone interested as a follow-up data point on this engine which may have light scoring. Not sure which cylinder(s). Feedback/thoughts welcome.
Couple of comments. 1) I have no idea what kind of oil the PO used, so Mobil 1 was just my assumption since that what I think the dealerships use. As discussed I have Driven DT40 in there now, but plan to use Driven FR50 starting at the next change per Petza's suggestion above. 2) I also don't know exactly how many miles the used oil had on it, since there was no sticker or exact timing/mileage given on its last change when I purchased it. 3k miles was just a baseless guess. 3) Not sure what they mean by adding oil between oil changes. I've not added any. I have some DT40 ready to add if I need any before the next change.
Got the UOA back, sharing for anyone interested as a follow-up data point on this engine which may have light scoring. Not sure which cylinder(s). Feedback/thoughts welcome.
Couple of comments. 1) I have no idea what kind of oil the PO used, so Mobil 1 was just my assumption since that what I think the dealerships use. As discussed I have Driven DT40 in there now, but plan to use Driven FR50 starting at the next change per Petza's suggestion above. 2) I also don't know exactly how many miles the used oil had on it, since there was no sticker or exact timing/mileage given on its last change when I purchased it. 3k miles was just a baseless guess. 3) Not sure what they mean by adding oil between oil changes. I've not added any. I have some DT40 ready to add if I need any before the next change.
Had I not seen the earlier photos, from this UOA I would not suspect bad scoring in this motor. Once it really starts cutting up the cylinder walls, you'll know and the aluminum number will jump into the mid to high teens or higher.
Use FR50 every 3k miles and drive it until you start having issues or get in line at FSI for a build and hope it lasts until your turn comes up,
Had I not seen the earlier photos, from this UOA I would not suspect bad scoring in this motor. Once it really starts cutting up the cylinder walls, you'll know and the aluminum number will jump into the mid to high teens or higher.
Use FR50 every 3k miles and drive it until you start having issues or get in line at FSI for a build and hope it lasts until your turn comes up,
Thank you for the feedback, FR50 is what I will switch to. If I'm not in line at FSI, what would you recommend I do once I start having issues? Will I know I am having them?
P.S. Earlier in this thread you (and others) believed this was light scoring. So maybe the UOA figures are looking okay because it's still quite early in the process.
Thank you for the feedback, FR50 is what I will switch to. If I'm not in line at FSI, what would you recommend I do once I start having issues? Will I know I am having them?
P.S. Earlier in this thread you (and others) believed this was light scoring. So maybe the UOA figures are looking okay because it's still quite early in the process.
Yes, you'll know when it's time. Your oil consumption will increase, you'll start fouling the plugs with the scoring in short order (few thousand miles), and you'll start logging misfires on that/those cylinders due to reduced compression.
Can't tell you what to do when that happens. What I'd do is park the car and wait for a slot at FSI. Iron sleeving them is not the right answer IMO.
Where are you located? FSI is a great option, but there may be other reputable rebuilders if you can't wait . They may not be as 'sexy' as having a rebuild by FSI, but, if they are reputable (do your diligence) and take care of the basic weak spots by having LN engineering doing the resleeving, IMS solution and other things, that may be an option.
But apparently you can't go wrong with getting on FSI's wait list, just save your pennies and hopefully you are enough of a car/911 nut to appreciate what you will have at the end of the day. Personally, I think the 997's with an FSI motor (or other quality rebuild motor) will hold its value and may appreciate given the state of affairs right now. Look at the 993 market, I just don't get the crazy prices they are going for right now; the 997 to me is just a better, nicer, more comfortable car to drive while still retaining that analog sports car feel. My 2cents.
Where are you located? FSI is a great option, but there may be other reputable rebuilders if you can't wait . They may not be as 'sexy' as having a rebuild by FSI, but, if they are reputable (do your diligence) and take care of the basic weak spots by having LN engineering doing the resleeving, IMS solution and other things, that may be an option.
But apparently you can't go wrong with getting on FSI's wait list, just save your pennies and hopefully you are enough of a car/911 nut to appreciate what you will have at the end of the day. Personally, I think the 997's with an FSI motor (or other quality rebuild motor) will hold its value and may appreciate given the state of affairs right now. Look at the 993 market, I just don't get the crazy prices they are going for right now; the 997 to me is just a better, nicer, more comfortable car to drive while still retaining that analog sports car feel. My 2cents.
Thanks for the suggestions. I live in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC. I haven't yet looked seriously into rebuild options and need to do that... I understand that while FSI may be "best of breed" there may be other options out there which take less time and money while still providing a stable engine at the end that won't do the same thing to itself.
Thanks for the suggestions. I live in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC. I haven't yet looked seriously into rebuild options and need to do that... I understand that while FSI may be "best of breed" there may be other options out there which take less time and money while still providing a stable engine at the end that won't do the same thing to itself.
Whatever you do, don't forget that life is finite and go and drive and enjoy your car as is. No-one can predict whether the engine is good for another 80K or just 8K miles, and nothing you can do about it other than treating it the best you can right now...
Whatever you do, don't forget that life is finite and go and drive and enjoy your car as is. No-one can predict whether the engine is good for another 80K or just 8K miles, and nothing you can do about it other than treating it the best you can right now...
Precisely this. I have 62k miles on my car and put about 4k miles on it annually. I've taken all of the appropriate steps to maintain and prolong the life of my engine (low temp T-stat and 3rd radiator installed, frequent oil changes with high quality oil, etc.). Even if I only get 100k miles out of my engine, that is 10 years away for me! Not to mention, there are a lot of people driving their 997.1's with well over 100k miles on the original engine. I met a guy at a PCA event recently here in CO who daily's his '06 C4S year-round and has about 130k miles on the original engine. My advice is to drive it and enjoy it, and have a plan in place for when/if the engine goes, which may be years off.
Just thought I would share a (happily) uneventful update. I was out of town a few months this summer, so there were only around 1200 miles, but since it had been 7 months I had the oil changed - also per @Petza914's suggestion there is now FR50 in the engine as of a week ago. Though, the UOA below was from when it was running on DT40. The numbers look pretty good to me. I haven't gotten it borescoped again since the first time. At around 1200 miles I was nearing the point of having to add a quart of oil, but not quite. So I guess consumption is still pretty low. Also, one other person's opinion I received by email inquiry from LN Engineering when I sent them the borescope photos above. While they admitted it is not easy to tell with only photos taken from the spark plug side, what was seen there is likely streaking but not scoring. A couple other things to try and keep it healthy:
Had the LN Engineering Low Temp Thermostat installed and their spin-on oil filter adapter - to use what seem to be superior filters
Filling up with Shell V-Power (or similar high quality) whenever possible
I've started using Driven Injector Defender every few fill-ups
Begin driving immediately after cold start, but short shift to keep it at 3k or less until temp is in the 175-200 range.
Thanks for all the great advice on this topic. Any further comments are always appreciated. I wish I knew the age of the fuel injectors, but unfortunately I purchased this from a dealer with no service records (!) so really not sure whether it's already been done.
congrats on the news! my 997.1 S is at 105000 miles, stored for winter and have been using Liqui Moly 5W-40 hightech with MOS2/Ceratec... based on what ive seen/read here im going to switch to Driven DT40 for next oil change and LN waterpump/thermostat kit install, thanks!
Just thought I would share a (happily) uneventful update. I was out of town a few months this summer, so there were only around 1200 miles, but since it had been 7 months I had the oil changed - also per @Petza914's suggestion there is now FR50 in the engine as of a week ago. Though, the UOA below was from when it was running on DT40. The numbers look pretty good to me. I haven't gotten it borescoped again since the first time. At around 1200 miles I was nearing the point of having to add a quart of oil, but not quite. So I guess consumption is still pretty low. Also, one other person's opinion I received by email inquiry from LN Engineering when I sent them the borescope photos above. While they admitted it is not easy to tell with only photos taken from the spark plug side, what was seen there is likely streaking but not scoring. A couple other things to try and keep it healthy:
Had the LN Engineering Low Temp Thermostat installed and their spin-on oil filter adapter - to use what seem to be superior filters
Filling up with Shell V-Power (or similar high quality) whenever possible
I've started using Driven Injector Defender every few fill-ups
Begin driving immediately after cold start, but short shift to keep it at 3k or less until temp is in the 175-200 range.
Thanks for all the great advice on this topic. Any further comments are always appreciated. I wish I knew the age of the fuel injectors, but unfortunately I purchased this from a dealer with no service records (!) so really not sure whether it's already been done.
Report looks good. The Titanium number is interesting to me. I've never had a UOA report on any engine (so we're talking probably 40 UOA reports in total) where it's been higher than 1. I don't even know where it's used in the engine.
Report looks good. The Titanium number is interesting to me. I've never had a UOA report on any engine (so we're talking probably 40 UOA reports in total) where it's been higher than 1. I don't even know where it's used in the engine.
According to the instructional pages attached to my report (I left them out of my post as I figured they weren't necessary, but they are attached here), it has this to say about sources of Titanium. They didn't flag the number as non-green, so like the other values I'll be looking for trends over multiple analyses.
Typically indicates valve spring retainer wear. Other parts such as connecting rods, wrist pins and valves can also be made from titanium. Check valve lash. Because titanium can also be an oil additive, sample unused oil to check for the presence of titanium as an oil additive in the fresh oil.
04-04-2022, 01:38 PM
