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Let this be the official thread of head scratching and fist shaking at the waaaaaaaaay over used notion that german engineering is some how superior, because frankly at every turn working on this car I'm finding one dumb engineering decision after another. Granted I'm new to Porsche and I've been doing 95% of my own work on the car, so I'll admit that there is going to be a learning curve, but $%*#ing come on.
Water pump and thermostat replacement is craptastic due to having to lower the engine to remove the engine carrier (when doing it per the service manual). I'll take having to mess with a bolt running through a bumper but WHY is that other upper bolt behind the bumper as well? They couldn't have moved the boss down one inch so the bolt can just be pulled straight out? Looks like they have room. On my 997.2, even when you slowly and carefully lower the engine just enough to free that bolt out of the carrier it puts stress one of the AC lines which hisses and leaks. They couldn't have designed 25.4mm (1") more play so the lines don't get under needless tension? What the f@#k! I probably just shaved 10 years off of my life huffing freon trying to find where the leak was coming from. And you can't design a water pump to last longer than 40,000 miles? Were you born stupid, Hans? Charge me $1 more for a bigger and better bearing.
The windshield washer reservoir design is crap as are the parts. Why in the holy hell would you put a seam like that down the middle of something that holds water? Why can't they make a windshield fluid pump that lasts more than 10 years? (mine apparently has a crack in it) Why would you engineer so many potential points of failure into one object? You designed (4) sealing grommets all sitting under the water line?? I've got a Japanese car from 1969 with the original pump and reservoir still going strong, it's never leaked in 50 years. 50 YEARS!
The clips near the headlights that hold the front bumper were next to impossible to get out.
The left front OEM strut, and ONLY the left, needs a #$%* spring compressor to remove it. For some reason the right one does not. Could they not add a bit more articulation on the left side?
The top bolt of the hydraulic tensioner is an irritant. And why does it go bad so quickly? GM makes one that'll last 100,000 miles, use them as a f#$*ing supplier.
The use of o-rings in the cooling system are all added potential points of failure. Or do they make their margin selling $4 o-rings?
Go ahead and try to completely drain the cooling system. You better invest in 14 buckets and a f*&king semi trailer of towels to mop up the mess.
To get the sway bar link off of the front suspension you need a VERY thin 17mm wrench to immobilize the shaft. A regular open ended wrench is too thick, but why make it easy?
PDK clutch fluid change, you gotta use the factory tool to get the last .5L in there?
Based on the slew of posts on this forum you have to replace exhaust parts to make it sound better, and you need to replace suspension parts to make it handle better.
Bore scoring and IMS bearing, enough said.
F#%K YOU, HANS!
Time to go get some food. Someone must have low blood sugar....
Last edited by Westside997; 06-09-2019 at 01:44 AM.
I have a team of German engineers reporting to me. My biggest challenge is getting them to understand concepts like redundancy, testability, contingency planning, manufacturability, etc.
They truly believe their engineering skills are so superior that nothing they design will ever fail. Why test it if it is expected to work? Why have a Plan B? It will never break, why plan on ever replacing it?
I questioned something in a design review, and the manager (reporting to me) sent me an email asking how dare I question the judgement of his superior engineers (his words). I set him straight. The superior German design came back broken. Luckily we had a dumb, common sense, American backup solution which worked.
Operation Barbarossa tells you all you need to know about the robustness of German designs.
Edit: I do love Germany and the Germans. Just wish they would be somewhat more aware of their ability to make mistakes. And I love my 997.2 c2s. Pure [edit: idealistic] engineering. And thus bound to fail sooner than expected. At which point I'll send it to Jake for the addition of much needed American ingenuity and robustness.
Last edited by BruceWarne; 06-09-2019 at 05:02 AM.
If you look carefully at Porsche engine design over the years, you will find they have a terrible record for long term reliability. 100k miles is a major accomplishment for a Porsche. That's not even worth mentioning for any other brand.
I am quite happy. To me the 997 is a sports car and not engineered like a passenger car. Engine at the rear causes all kinds of challenges with available space, accessibility etc. My coolant cap started leaking but that's about it after close to five years of ownership. And yes - Original Moll battery gave up last year. After 11 years on the car.
The much hated cup holders I can agree is a silly solution but I don't use them unless going for long trips.
I have a team of German engineers reporting to me. My biggest challenge is getting them to understand concepts like redundancy, testability, contingency planning, manufacturability, etc.
They truly believe their engineering skills are so superior that nothing they design will ever fail. Why test it if it is expected to work? Why have a Plan B? It will never break, why plan on ever replacing it?
I questioned something in a design review, and the manager (reporting to me) sent me an email asking how dare I question the judgement of his superior engineers (his words). I set him straight. The superior German design came back broken. Luckily we had a dumb, common sense, American backup solution which worked.
Operation Barbarossa tells you all you need to know about the robustness of German designs.
Edit: I do love Germany and the Germans. Just wish they would be somewhat more aware of their ability to make mistakes. And I love my 997.2 c2s. Pure engineering. And thus bound to fail sooner than expected. At which point I'll send it to Jake for the addition of much needed American ingenuity and robustness.
Haha I actually like the Germans too (I've traveled the country extensively), but their unearned smugness is legendary. I went to a design school and the german students would crap on everyone else projects during critiques and come up the most fantastical esoteric b.s. to justify why their completely ungrounded idea was superior. It was actually fascinating to watch.
I'm sure I'll like this car once I shake it down, but at the moment...
I am quite happy. To me the 997 is a sports car and not engineered like a passenger car. Engine at the rear causes all kinds of challenges with available space, accessibility etc. My coolant cap started leaking but that's about it after close to five years of ownership. And yes - Original Moll battery gave up last year. After 11 years on the car.
The much hated cup holders I can agree is a silly solution but I don't use them unless going for long trips.
The cup holders are infinitely better than what's found in a BMW, so they get +1 on these, although I haven't tired to use them yet.
Shortly after the Berlin wall opened but was still mainly intact (1990), I was waiting for my date at the Brandenburg gate when I overheard a group of English (four couples) speaking.
One of the women said "John, you're an architect. How would you have designed this differently?" while directing everyone's attention towards the gate.
And then John, who must have had prepared a speech in advance went into a 3 minute diatribe while everyone within earshot must have been thinking
"where's a Russian tank to roll over these idiots when you need one."
“It isn't the mountains ahead to climb that wear you out, it's the pebble in your shoe.”
History and engineering are replete with the failures of small parts and bad design with black swan consequences.
The Challenger disaster was the fault of two o-rings. Total cost of that failure was over $3.2 billion in 1986 dollars.
Some poorly designed bolts resulted in the Hyatt collapse in Kansas City - insurance claims and lawsuits totaled over $3 billion, also in 1980s dollars.
Us Americans are not exactly known for being humble. I'm pretty sure we're seen as the most arrogant nation in the world.
In engineering though, I think at least one thing lead to US designs being more robust than German:
It's socially acceptable to vigorously question your peers' work in reviews. This leads to potential failure modes getting flagged and addressed.
It is not German culture to question your peers' work in public. Reviews consist of them showing you what they did, you checking some boxes, and saying "super".
Just one clarification: My German team's work is usually better than my US teams'. But nowhere as robust.
I do believe German engineers are brilliant. They just need to realize their designs can fail and plan accordingly. Once they do that, their work will live up to its reputation.
“It isn't the mountains ahead to climb that wear you out, it's the pebble in your shoe.”
History and engineering are replete with the failures of small parts and bad design with black swan consequences.
The Challenger disaster was the fault of two o-rings. Total cost of that failure was over $3.2 billion in 1986 dollars.
Some poorly designed bolts resulted in the Hyatt collapse in Kansas City - insurance claims and lawsuits totaled over $3 billion, also in 1980s dollars.
Want simplicity in your life - buy an early 912.
That's a fantastic quote, however the argument here isn't for simplicity, nor am I lacking in acknowledgement that terrible engineering anomalies occur, of which no culture is immune.
My point is more along the line of what Bruce is saying. There does seem to be some cultural component in the works, especially in contrast with the Japanese.
That said, if a moderator would like to delete this thread I wouldn't take offense. I'm not one to try to and stir up debate but my frustrations got the better of me. It's all spitting into the wind at this point, since none of this discussion will change anything.
I'm back under the car today, and I'm realizing that I can't fill the coolant system until I get two of those small wire hose retaining clips, that didn't come with the used center radiator I'm installing.
Let's make those the last addition to my list ;-)
Let's all get out there and enjoy the day!
Last edited by Westside997; 06-09-2019 at 08:29 PM.
Ha! Funny stuff. I don't mind the German engineering too badly, there are plenty of headaches but my only point of reference for a car like my 997.2 was my 987.2. I've worked on a lot simpler cars but none with a performance like my Porsches or a cost. I'd imagine working on some other car with a similar performance and size would be equally challenging. Something like a GTR or NSX (yeah that pushes the pricing parity argument but you get my drift) would likely be similar headaches.
I will add my small bit of supporting experience to some of the ideas about it possibly being cultural. I've been living in Germany now off and on for 3 months, and now we've moved here to stay. I do see that there is some cultural aspect to complicating things which could potentially be a lot simpler. There is a duality to it. Sometimes the way in which something was complicated here (from my admittedly limited perspective) is fascinating or has a greater efficiency. Sometimes it's just needless complication. The cupholders someone mentioned earlier, I think that one definitely falls into the needless complication category. They were bad news on the 911, when you actually use them. And they were the same on the Cayman. I can see the design is neat, and delicate. And it would be fine if it worked as designed, but it doesn't usually.
That's a fantastic quote, however the argument here isn't for simplicity, nor am I lacking in acknowledgement that terrible engineering anomalies occur, of which no culture is immune.
My point is more along the line of what Bruce is saying. There does seem to be some cultural component in the works, especially in contrast with the Japanese.
That said, if a moderator would like to delete this thread I wouldn't take offense. I'm not one to try to and stir up debate but my frustrations got the better of me. It's all spitting into the wind at this point, since none of this discussion will change anything.
I'm back under the car today, and I'm realizing that I can't fill the coolant system until I get two of those small wire hose retaining clips, that didn't come with the used center radiator I'm installing.
Let's make those the last addition to my list ;-)
Let's all get out there and enjoy the day!
It's all fun - just the interwebs. It's not like someone can crawl through one of the tubes* and come into your house.
Kudos for even taking on these challenges. When I try wrenching the frustration is with myself.
The joke is ultimately on you OP. You bought a car with the engine in the wrong place and it took them 50 years to perfect it. Then they quietly made the RSR mid-engine for "better competitiveness".
Having restored GM muscle cars in my past they were simple, easy to understand and required basic hand tools. Having restored Mercedes Benz they are complecated, difficult and every job requires fourteeen special tools that you'll only use once and they cost more than the thing they are used to fix. I am kind of new to Porsche. I've owned three Mercedes (and still own one) that were built by Porsche and they are difficult and expensive to repair. I am looking forward, with some anxiety, to get my hands dirty on a real Porsche.
I don't believe these cars are as fragile as some would suggest. Just like Mercedes Porsche are over engineered. Mercedes are over engineered tanks that will run forever as long as you maintain them. When they do break get the big check book out. But, if these cars were as bad as some would make them out why would you spend huge sums of money to own one?
But, if these cars were as bad as some would make them out why would you spend huge sums of money to own one?
Because they look like rolling sex, and wealthy people seem to be able to afford incredible amounts of depreciation?
As intimated above, and I agree, no other car brand has this combination of styling (primary) and performance (secondary) at that price point. And I think that's whether you pay full boat new price or used prices.
At $120k what are the options out there? Seriously I don't know, I don't live in that world.
My '09 was $40K, and the other purchase options were an M3, Alfa, Lexus, ?. The 911 seemed to be the more inspired choice.
I realize I bought a coin-operated mechanical headache, but it sure is a damn sexy one.
Last edited by Westside997; 06-10-2019 at 06:10 PM.
06-08-2019, 10:28 PM
German Engineering?: Begin 997.2 rant
