s85b50

Hello guys,

Been looking for a weekend roadster, did some research on 911s and their quirks...

Came down to these two that fit the bill, but have some questions remaining:
It would be awesome if you guys could share your experience.

1. Engine: 997.1 with one of the last Mezger engines is arguably a bit more special, but what about the reliability vs.997.2?
Both are around 50K km (32,000 miles).

2. Does MT have hill assist? How long does the clutch last under normal (mostly city) driving conditions?
I regularly track M3s but I have never driven a high torque AWD MT.

3. PCCB vs. steel brakes. Almost all Turbo models in my region have PCCB fit standard.

4. Anything else I should watch out (LSD, powertrain) when inspecting one of these?

Thank you.

wjk_glynn

There’s a 997 Turbo specific board here - https://rennlist.com/forums/997-turbo-forum-139/

I’d recommend asking the same question there, simply because there’s probably a larger number of experienced Turbo owners active on that one.

Just an FYI...

s85b50

Thank you for the prompt reply. I will do so.

MexicoBlueTurboS

Hopefully Petza914 will chime in - he's very knowledgeable

Balr14

I would take any car with the PDK over manual, especially one with a turbo. I understand this would not be a popular choice on this web site, but it certainly is in the real world. My 335i has a 6 speed manual. It's one of the nicest manuals I've driven, but it still feels outdated.

s85b50

My one concern is it may not be as simple and reliable as a standard transmission,
but it would certainly help if I'm trying to go very fast. Also would be much easier for city driving.

Balr14

Porsche says it was engineered to last the life of the car and it's technology they have been using for many years. The failure rate is quite low, but some will be bad, just like any automatic transmission. It gets blown out of proportion because of the replacement cost is high. With a manual, you WILL replace the clutch and it WILL cost thousands. You can get an extended warranty that cover the PDK. I don't think you will get one that covers a clutch disk and replacement costs. From what I have read, only parts of the clutch assembly that are not considered wear items are covered. You can buy an extended warranty for less than a clutch replacement costs.

user 72902

Both are awesome cars but a 997.1 turbo - a mezger I'm not sure if I'd classify that as less reliable than a 997.2 turbo. There are some common upgrades like pinning the coolant line but I'd go with the mezger which is obviously a personal choice. If you want an automatic then you already know what you should do.

MexicoBlueTurboS

Here's my math on it. 200k miles - 3 clutch jobs at 4 - 5k each or one PDK at 12-15k about the same cost.

Or under warranty - clutches not. PDK yes.

Badly over rev an MT? - could be $30k - over rev a PDK - you'd have to be brick stupid to manage. Most have less than 50 range 2 ignitions.

Shave tenths off your 0-60? PDK.

Easy choice PDK.

I can drive a stick, drink champagne, and eat escargot at the same time. I'm sick of rowing anything. It's a punishment for renting the lowest priced car when you go to Europe.

Skwerl

I couldn't possibly disagree more with the PDK advocates in this thread, but the topic has been beaten to death and a search would provide a wealth of discussion.

My vote is 6mt Mezger coupe and don't be surprised when you need to do the $3k coolant line job.

Fined

This is how I've always looked at it. Flat out, it's a wash. It makes sense to pick the one you personally prefer and leave it at that.

Petza914

In a turbo, the PDK will be faster as it can stay on boost during the gear changes, whereas when you let off the gas to do the shift in a MT, you'll have to rebuild the boost again. That being said, I love a clutch and the engagement and relationship with the car of shifting manually and wouldn't own a sports car without a MT, but that's a personal opinion.

Clutch costs vs PDK. The math done earlier here on 3 clutch replacements in 200k miles vs one PDK is fine, if the PDK makes it that far. PDK is a total replacement scenario in the $10k-$12k range vs a clutch job. If you work on your cars yourself, that clutch job is $1,500 or so - if you don't it's 2-3x that, but with the PDK, there's nothing you can do yourself, but swap the whole unit and it could happen at anytime - not saying it will, but when they fail, this is the scenario. Everything is great until you get the PDK emergency run message and then you're usually done. I tend to stay away from things that don't have components that can be fixed, but that's partly because I keep my cars forever, work on them myself, and want them to be serviceable.

Sweet spot to me in the turbo lineup is the 2009 with MT. You get the legacy Metzger motor, but the updated 997.2 interior. I don't know much about the next generation Turbo motor used after the Metzger, other than that it's a DFI version and I'm not sure all the longer term issues with DFI are fully understood yet - things like carbon buildup on intake valves, LSPI (low speed pee ignition), cylinder wall washing, etc - in a few years we'll have a pretty good idea of the long-term issues on that.

The Mezger motor does need to have the coolant lines pinned so they don't catastrophically separate and dump slippery coolant all over the rear tires. As someone mentioned, it's about a $3,000 proposition, so a nice savings if you can find one where it has already been done for you.

Look up some Rennlist threads on what people are fixing on the older turbos as they age and you'll get an idea of what you'll be looking at longer term (if you plan to keep it for a while).

Here's a great one where he bought a high mileage Turbo and brought it up to snuff

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/1134174-pork2-back-in-black-tales-of-the-turbo-diy-heavy.html#post15772943


Good luck and let us know what you end up with. They're awesome cars and what I would have in my garage had I not come across my RUF car when I was looking.

PS specific to your questions

Does the MT have hill assist - yes its called the parking brake

PCCB or steel - unless you'll be tracking the car, PCCB all day every day. No dust, unbelievable braking power, far lighter (you can feel the difference in I spring weight when driving) and rotors will likely last the life of the car if street driven. Liked them on my 997 so much, I upgraded to them on my Cayenne Turbo S. They are one thing that need to be very carefully inspected before purchase for any chips along the edges, both inside and outside and you have to take extra precautions with them when doing service work, like using 2 guide pins for wheel removal instead of one (unless you have center locks). At 55k miles, my PCCB rotors still look like brand new.

Bxstr

I have driven both, but have owned neither. I have quite a bit of seat time in the 997.2 Turbo though, with PDK.

Engine: I would take the DFI engine over the Mezger. It has less problems, at least as of right now, there are no coolant line failures, no spun cams, etc. It is an engine that has proven itself to be very reliable and make very solid power. Has it made as much power as a Mezger, no, but I don't think people have pushed the platform as far as it will go. The Mezger with the right exhaust does sound amazing though and is a bulletproof engine it seems, aside from a random failure that you will hear about here and there, which are probably caused by some external factor like a mis shift.

Transmission: For me, I would take the manual over the PDK from a reliability standpoint. Yes, you are going to probably have to do 4 clutches in 200k miles, but the issue with the PDK is at the moment they dont fix them. They will make you return the entire unit and install a new one. This could be for something as simple as a single sensor inside of the PDK. Keep in mind, I own a PDK. Yes, so I do like the PDK, it is easy to use, I can drive with a group of friends and not have to think about mis shifting, instead all I have to think about is driving and when to brake, turn and accelerate. Also, although I have fun roads around my house, I tend to do a lot of normal weekend driving with it, go to the store with it, visit friends, etc. Most of these people live in much more populated areas and not having to think about constantly clutching in and out and sitting at lights is very nice. This is really up to you. I dont think I will own a PDK out of warranty, considering I had the dual clutch on my S4 fail on me last year, which was an $11k bill, luckily paid for by Fidelity warranty. On a PDK, expect around $20k for the same repair.

Interior: 997.2 Turbo is going to be better, with the updated looking infotainment (it isn't that much better than the 997.1 but the black instead of the gray center console area looks better) and one thing a friend and I have noticed is the seats in even low mile 997.1 Turbos all seem to be destroyed, whereas even higher mileage 997.2 Turbos seem to be in much better condition. We are unsure if leather updates were made, but I have tried looking into this.

General driving: The power in the 997.2 Turbo is unreal especially with a tune. It is just unlike anything else. If you pair it with a PDK, it becomes an incredibly quick car. You can use the power easier since you aren't constantly shifting yourself.

General looks: Both look good, I actually like the pre facelift taillights on the 997.1 quite a bit, has a retro look to them which I think suits that car well. Although many upgrade to the led taillights.

MexicoBlueTurboS

A golden nugget I didn't know until now. I have CLs but yes, makes perfect sense. And I just thought those pins were for ease when using spacers.

Thanks Pete!

Petza914

The center lock setup should have a large center pin that's used. These allow you to slide the wheel off on the pins to clear the rotors. If the wheel falls onto the top of a PCCB, it will chip the edge and that's a $5,000-$8,000 mistake (yes, that's per rotor). I also use something under the tire that's the right thickness for the height the wheel will be sliding off at. A nylon cutting board works great as it's easy to slide on the floor or lift.

With a 5 bolt setup using 2 pins prevents the chance for the wheel to rotate and still hit the rotor, like shown on my Cayenne here