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The Amsoil UOA posted is pretty low on Zinc and Phosphorous content, and pretty high on Calcium, which I believe was mentioned earlier in this thread to be a detergent that was an abrasive with respect to LSPI.
Driven DI40 is the right choice (IMO) for the DFI engines and why I just ordered a case for my DFI Cayenne.
DI40 could be a good choice. They promise the same thing. I wish all oil company publish their data to educate us or at least support their claim.
The Amsoil UOA based on used oil. The composition is changed so we can't really use it for disqualify whether or not Euro Amsoil is good or bad for LSPI protection.
Beside, the one I refer to is the newer Amsoil "Signature Series" which is API SN Plus certified. https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf
As I pointed out in earlier post, there are few studies shown the right amount of Ca/Mg ppm mixture is the key to improve LSPI protection. Amsoil could change the ratio in their newer oil or add/remove something else to improve LSPI protection, wishful thinking right? I understand no oil company want to show their oil secret formula but we can read from UOA report to make some unscientific prediction. LSPI/SN Plus certification is too new (2018) to make any conclusive conclusion. There is no right a wrong brand at this early stage as we all have to take oil company promise at face value. So which oil to choose as of 2019: Pick your fav brand, choose newer oil model which has A40 and API SNPlus for your Porsche engine with GDI/DFI/Turbo.
I don't know why it's being skipped over and not taken as well as it should be in my opinion, but Raby has posted on this board within the last week that he and LN engineering SPECIFICALLY designed the driven DI40 and DT40 for the DFI and M96/7 engines, respectively.
I don't know of any other oils that have been designed with one specific engine in mind....
My car is still under warranty so I have to use approved oils - A40
And if anyone finds an SN plus A40 let me know.
Liqui Moly LeichtLauf High Tech 5W40 is A40 and has plenty of Calcium.I use it along with MoS2 a solid lubricant compatible with all oils and also made by Liqui Moly.
I don't know why it's being skipped over and not taken as well as it should be in my opinion, but Raby has posted on this board within the last week that he and LN engineering SPECIFICALLY designed the driven DI40 and DT40 for the DFI and M96/7 engines, respectively.
The main reason I can't comment on DI40 is I have no data to back it up. I searched high and low including their website for DI40 technical data that show its support Porsche A40 and DFI/LSPI specification but I can't find any. I would love to see their data or at least partial disclosure some info so we all can make an informative decision ourselves.
Here is all info can find. for DI40: https://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-...12-quarts.html
Having said that, I went back to Amsoil, (and HKS) site to search for A40 certification on their Signature SN Plus series 0W40/5W40, I can't find any either. Only Amsoil Euro has A40 but no SN Plus. As I mention before, the first oil company come out with the A40 AND SN Plus certification, I will buy their product. So far I can't find any oil that support BOTH A40 and SN Plus so I am back to square one.
I don't know of any other oils that have been designed with one specific engine in mind....Cw
Not economically feasible to do that. All oil company will try to accommodate every car manufacture by adhere to all certifications if they can. In the case of Mobil1 0W40, other oil company, they can only have A40 plus but NOT API SN Plus.
In general, literature publications that I accept is technical data that published amongst their peers of research or a reputable independent magazine. Other than that, I read oil sale brochure, car racing house, and engine builder recommendations with a grain of salt when it comes to oil. DT40/DI40/M1/Motul/LiquiMoly/Amsoil/ even new comer AmazonBasic Euro 0W40 all claim their oil can use for DFI/Turbo and/or Euro car! Frankly, I trust original Porsche owners with high milage car for oil recommendation more than anyone else. Take care and enjoy our Porsche.
Liqui Moly Leictlauf High Tech 5W40 is A40 and has plenty of Calcium.I use it along with MoS2 a solid lubricant compatible with all oils and also made by Liqui Moly.
Thanks for MoS2 a solid lubricant recommendation.
Here is one example of good publication that I would trust to find more info to see if I needed for my oil or not. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402748/
Thanks for MoS2 a solid lubricant recommendation.
Here is one example of good publication that I would trust to find more info to see if I needed for my oil or not. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402748/
So what is your conclusion from reading that article?
The main reason I can't comment on DI40 is I have no data to back it up. I searched high and low including their website for DI40 technical data that show its support Porsche A40 and DFI/LSPI specification but I can't find any.
Joe Gibbs Racing doesn't submit their oils for A40 Porsche certification so you won't find any of them with A40 approval. Also, some of those approvals require lower quantities of certain things like Zinc & Phosphorous in order to get them, which is one reason all of the A40 approved oils are lower in these, to the detriment of some of the engine components. There are some synthetic Turbo Diesel oils that have higher ZDDP levels, but they don't have the HTHS properties you need in a sports car motor that turns 7,000 rpm.
I also personally don't think it's a good idea to add anything to your oil - better to use an oil that has proper levels of whatever you feel like you need to add separately.
So what is your conclusion from reading that article?
How can Molybdenum disulphide (MoS2) can provide friction reduction and wear resistance?
Look at MoS2 chemical bonding: MoS2 has layered structure consisting of hexagonal rings forming thin parallel planes "velvet like silk".
Within the plane each atom is strongly bonded covalently S-Mo-S. The planes are bonded to each other by weak Van der Waals forces.
The layered structure allows sliding movement of the parallel planes. Weak bonding between the planes determines low shear strength and lubricating properties of the materials.
Very similar to water H2O where atom covalently bonded H-O-H and weak hydrogen bonded between 2 water molecules O---H provide a "liquid phase" that can be used as lubricate. Hence MoS2 provide excellent lubricity.
Let's only focus MoS2 in this study as it's relevant to our oil discussion. The study found moisture (H2O ) reduce the wear life of MoS2 . In order to extend the wear life of MoS2 They introduce contaminate (Oxygen, Carbon) and or combine with WSex or WC. If you remember the study from Lubrizol I listed above, "Formulating solution 2 – molybdenum dialkyldithiocarbamate (MoDTC) is added", It fail to prevent LSPI early. The oil report also show trace of molybdenum 22ppm. In both cases, they suffer from moisture H2O in the oil, gas and in the air.
Why oil company don't add more MoS2 in their oil to compensate the lost of lubricity from moisture?
Well, too much of soft metal will increase viscosity of the oil. So, may be not a good idea to add more MoS2 as we don't know how much MoS2 powder to add. It may have some benefit but I am not sure if I want to take chances to add more MoS2.
Also, some of those approvals require lower quantities of certain things like Zinc & Phosphorous in order to get them, which is one reason all of the A40 approved oils are lower in these, to the detriment of some of the engine components.
Wow, That is a very strong statement. I don't even think anyone can prove what you just wrote about A40. Here are some UOA number to compare see if it's significant enough to draw a conclusive evidence or not. Zinc DT40 1120 ppm vs M1 932ppm vs Amsoil 992 ppm. Phosphorous DT40 1058 ppm vs M1 886ppm vs Amsoil 867 ppm MoS2 DT40 1ppm vs M1 72ppm vs Amsoil 22 ppm. Ca DT40 2817ppm vs M1 2820 ppm vs Amsoil 2142 ppm Mg DT40 8ppm vs M1 23 vs Amsoil 15 ppm
Can anyone explain to me why ingredient such as Boron, Silicon and others are less ppm or even absent in DT40?
If any oil company want to prove their oil is better than others, publish their result like the MoS2 paper I've just read.
Why Boron?
"For engine oils, there has been a need to reduce the poisoning of the exotic metals in catalytic converters from organic phosphorus compounds, usually due to the phosphorus in ZDDP. Whether this problem is real or perceived, this has led to the reduction of ZDDP and the increased use of non-phosphorus AW and EP additives such as MoTDC, SbDTC, and the Borates. In engine oils, the microparticulate borates are prepared by dissolving an alkali metal borate in the presence of a metal sulfonate and succinimde dispersant to form a micro-emulsion which is then added to a base oil, or as part of an additive package. When an oil uses this additive, an analysis of that oil will show both potassium and boron. The concentration of borate additives is in the range of 0.5% to 2% by weight. Any concentration less than 0.5%, or larger than 2%, shows up as increased wear in the 4-Ball Wear Testing machine. As you can see, additive chemistry is a meticulous balancing act, so as to preclude additive clash.
Many lubricating oils and greases now contain borates in various forms to reduce wear by the action of these solid borate films, which act as AW and EP additives. When used with the dithiocarbamate family of antimony and moly, corrosion and antioxidant resistant greases can be formulated as well to provide the same EP and AW qualities.
A side benefit of the borates in motor oils and gear lubricants is their action as mild detergents and as acid reducing agents. Their alkili chemistry helps to retain the oil's TBN, or Total Base Number as well." https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/ge...FULLTEXT01.pdf
Not the A-40 that help to reduce LSPI. You picked the right oil AMSOIL that happen to have addictive metal Ca/Mg (Ca 2140 ppm high?) and (Mg 15 ppm low?) in the oil which proven to help reduce LSPI. A40 is very specific to Porsche. If you compare Amsoil to Mobile1 0W40, M1 also A-40, but not listed on LSPI approve list. I think I found my oil: AMSOIL Thanks for posting the test result.
Two items about my posted UOA report:
1. It's used oil, not virgin. The lab has additive profiles for the oils. Calcium will deplete as the oil is run. TBN (Total Base Number) of this oil starts out at 8; my sample shows 4.94, so there's plenty of protection left. TBN is the oil's ability to counteract the acids formed in the crankcase.
2. This was first oil change after my purchasing the car in December 2017. PO had oil service done a couple months prior - oil brand unknown to him but my guess is that it was prolly Mobil 1. That could be the reason for moly showing up here.
Last edited by swingwing; 02-21-2019 at 10:36 AM.
Reason: Corrected wording.
I skimmed through the thread and hope the following can help shed some light on this...
As far as I know, I have not heard any other formal specifics announced on higher vis synthetics (0W40, 5W40, 15W50 etc) to get an API SN+ cert for LSPI reduction. There are tests being done but not sure to what level of approval they are at.
For now, only the lower viscosity "resource conserving oils" (0W20-10W30, low HTHS oils) will be considered for API SN+ as part of the supplemental oil category in our transition from ILSAC GF-5 to ILSAC GF-6 (only low vis oils apply to ILSAC requirements) until we hear otherwise. It should be stated in theory, one could choose to make an API SN+ STYLE high vis oil but may not be able to get certain approvals (Euro OEM's in this case) if API SN+ hasn't been formally acknowledged by the engine manufacturers or even the ACEA; but testing has been going on with the additive mfr's so it will probably be just a matter of time.
That being said, the higher vis and high HTHS oils your cars take, a 0W40, 5W40 etc (and even high HTHS 5W30's for other Euro OEM's) will remain at their current API specification for now. Technically speaking, while all these oils were under the API classification (API SN), higher vis oils stated above do not fall into the same classification or standards due to their SAPS levels and HTHS levels due to their chemical makeup and requirement as high engine protection products (higher ash, higher ZDDP, high HTHS and no fuel economy advantage).
For what it is worth, we do formally recommend our X-cess 5W40, X-clean 5W40 and 0W40 (all Porsche A40 approved) and even 300V oils for cars equipped with direct injection. These oils have similar calcium content as LSPI reducing specific oils, they are also higher in ZDDP that can also lower LSPI from occurring. - Nick
we do formally recommend our X-clean 5W40 (all Porsche A40 approved) These oils have similar calcium content as LSPI reducing specific oils, they are also higher in ZDDP that can also lower LSPI from occurring. - Nick
I narrow down to X-Clean 5W40 which has both A40 and Dexos 2. For those who don't know, Dexos 2 is GM version similar to SN Plus. Close enough for now.
Let's assume we all agree that high levels of calcium detergents promote LSPI while magnesium detergents and molybdenum disulfide friction modifiers tend to reduce the occurrence of LSPI. I don't need Motul to disclose Motul's secret Ca/Mg/Mo ratio but can you at least give me the specfication of Dexos 1 Gen 2 and Dexos 2 in term of MoS2, Ca and Mg? Or if possible, send your fresh oil X-Clean 5W40 for UOA and ask the UOA company to post the result directly here. Thanks Nick.
02-20-2019, 03:00 AM
