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How do you check a 997.2 for bore scoring?

 
Old 02-11-2019, 04:22 PM
  #31  
gopirates
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Based on my build sheet, my car was made in 12/2008 so not sure if that is a factor for 997.2 as it was an early 2009 car. The previous owner care for warm up / cool down is unknown for me and being a cold climate car could be a factor. Though I'm **** about this with the new engine.

I have also been hearing more frequent oil changes than the minimum annual / 5K oil change. So I am planning to do an oil change every 6 months as this can be a small cost to pay that may yield a higher lifetime down the road. I seem to recall Pete/Petza advocating this as well for his fleet.

I'm also considering the Blackstone analysis for every oil change. Seeing Pete's spreadsheet has me thinking this is right up my alley for being a documentation and trend analysis nerd....
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:45 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Dennis R. Cliff View Post
What I am interested in finding out; is the occurrence of bore scoring in the 997.2 the result of issues in the design and production of the motors by Porsche or is bore scoring the result of driver practices and other circumstances that an engine is subjected to after it is purchased new from a dealer. Air cooled Porsche engines are generally described as "bullet proof". Buyers generally have no qualms about buying high mileage air cooled cars. In my opinion, the engines in 1999 to 2008 cars are certainly not "bullet proof", excepting Mezgers. So might there be bad batches of pistons going into some .2s or variations in the coating process for the pistons? The cylinder bores supposedly do not wear out, The coating of pistons with a tough, friction reducing, wear resistant silicone compound is fairly old and common technology. Engine design and manufacture is Porsche's forte. They build racing engines!!!. So even if an owner of one of these cars doesn't maintain his car properly and tends to run the Beejesus out of it I would hope that the engine isn't so delicate as to develop scored bores. I am tending to suspect that the bore scoring problem is due to the design and production of these motors and to a lesser degree the fault of owners practices or air temps. I suppose we will eventually find out.
Racing engines get rebuilt after so many hours of use or a failure. Plenty of manufacturers have built high performance unreliable engines over the years. I think owner factors obviously contribute since failure is more common in cold temps. Not properly warming up cars should contribute something, and plenty of people do not seem to warm up their cars of all types based on what I see driving everyday. As far as air cooled Porsche engines being bullet proof, I would disagree to the extent that alot of 70s and 80s Porsche engines get $10-20k rebuilds around 100k miles, some many more and plenty less than that and depending on whether NA or Turbo, the later being much more expensive. Maybe I am wrong, but air cooled owners seem to take those engine out services in greater stride, but if it were a 30k new engine in a 997 worth 30-50k, I can see how that would be different, as I would be more upset. It is kind of apples and oranges, but Porsche designed all these engines and made the bean counter decisions as they saw fit at different points in time. My last car was an S5 I bought with 11k miles on it, and it had just gotten a new long block under warranty at the dealer that took it in trade before I bought it.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:15 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gopirates View Post
I'm also considering the Blackstone analysis for every oil change. Seeing Pete's spreadsheet has me thinking this is right up my alley for being a documentation and trend analysis nerd....
Oil analysis is worthwhile, especially for more valuable engines. But don't expect it to give you much warning about bore score -- the damage already exists before it shows up in the OA. I already had confirmed my scoring before anything significant showed up. That said, it can work to partially confirm a problem or to give some indication as to how bad the problem is getting. I took my known scored engine in to be rebuilt at the point where OA reported significant fuel dilution.

Probably the best use of OA is to gain insight as to what is actually happening with the oil itself. How are its protective properties holding up? Should you be changing it sooner? How is your current oil behaving compared to another oil you may have tried? Etc. Indications of major engine problems will always show up a little late, but they do show up.

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Old 02-11-2019, 06:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by gopirates View Post
Based on my build sheet, my car was made in 12/2008 so not sure if that is a factor for 997.2 as it was an early 2009 car. The previous owner care for warm up / cool down is unknown for me and being a cold climate car could be a factor. Though I'm **** about this with the new engine.

I have also been hearing more frequent oil changes than the minimum annual / 5K oil change. So I am planning to do an oil change every 6 months as this can be a small cost to pay that may yield a higher lifetime down the road. I seem to recall Pete/Petza advocating this as well for his fleet.

I'm also considering the Blackstone analysis for every oil change. Seeing Pete's spreadsheet has me thinking this is right up my alley for being a documentation and trend analysis nerd....
I do a UOA on all oil changes, no matter what the vehicle - Porsches, GMC, Malibu boat, etc including the TAN & TBN. Most of my cars see less than 5,000 miles of use per year (wife's 997, 914, 928, Cayenne) so they get an annual oil change or at 5,000 miles, the exception being my 997 that gets 1 year or 4,000 miles, because the UOA number show that's a better interval under the stresses that motor sees. The pickup sees 20,000 miles/year so gets 4 oil changes per year at 5,000 mile intervals - it's an '01 now at 175k miles.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:06 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by C4SDayton View Post
Racing engines get rebuilt after so many hours of use or a failure. Plenty of manufacturers have built high performance unreliable engines over the years. I think owner factors obviously contribute since failure is more common in cold temps. Not properly warming up cars should contribute something, and plenty of people do not seem to warm up their cars of all types based on what I see driving everyday. As far as air cooled Porsche engines being bullet proof, I would disagree to the extent that alot of 70s and 80s Porsche engines get $10-20k rebuilds around 100k miles, some many more and plenty less than that and depending on whether NA or Turbo, the later being much more expensive. Maybe I am wrong, but air cooled owners seem to take those engine out services in greater stride
Yeah I think there is a massive misconception on this forum that the air cooled and the Mezger engine doesn’t have expensive flaws. My buddy dropped $12k to get the coolant lines pinned in his GT3, another spent at least that to get the cams pinned. Funny thing is the guy with the GT3 burst a line (nothing to do with pinning) after getting them pinned and damn near put me off of Mid-Ohio (well maybe not so funny). Point being things break and you pay to play, if that isn’t something that sits well then these cars wouldn’t be fun to own, at least not for me.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:33 PM
  #36  
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Coolant pinning a Mezger shouldn't cost anywhere close to $12k. It's like a $3k job at most indies.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:46 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Skwerl View Post
Coolant pinning a Mezger shouldn't cost anywhere close to $12k. It's like a $3k job at most indies.
IDK what else he did while the engine was out and can’t comment on what an Indy typically charges, I just know what he paid because he wanted to grab the receipt to prove to PCA he had it done. Cost aside I guess my point was everything has problems and sometimes you take every precaution you can and the unexpected happens.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:47 PM
  #38  
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Leakdown and compression tests are virtually worthless wastes of time when dealing with bore scoring. Often the excess oil in the cylinders will seal the cylinders up well enough to pass these tests... The only exception to this is a specialized “running compression test” where the engine is ran to test each cylinder, with the fuel injector on the respective cylinder deatctivated. With this test you are not looking for a data point value, but rather how the gauge of the tester responds to idle speed, acceleration, and deceleration. This is not a test that is easy to perform, as it takes experience to note the behavioral traits and know whats questionable.
Don’t even bother with the leakdown and compression testing, its just a waste of money.

As my video series on bore scoring is released weekly we are getting closer and closer to the video where l show you how to find a scored bore with a 5mm allen wrench, a spark plug socket, and a 32.00 bore scope from Amazon. The focus now is on the .1 engine, but later in the spring l plan to do a .2 engine, as the procedures are vastly different.

Most PPI inspectors approach these cars like they have no problems, so they don;t know where to look. In an hour or less l can usually find a problem that they’ve overlooked. l look at the engine objectively, like there’s a problem and l just have to find it. l treat a PPI like a pre- flight inspection, and thats the key.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:42 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations View Post
Leakdown and compression tests are virtually worthless wastes of time when dealing with bore scoring. Often the excess oil in the cylinders will seal the cylinders up well enough to pass these tests... The only exception to this is a specialized “running compression test” where the engine is ran to test each cylinder, with the fuel injector on the respective cylinder deatctivated. With this test you are not looking for a data point value, but rather how the gauge of the tester responds to idle speed, acceleration, and deceleration. This is not a test that is easy to perform, as it takes experience to note the behavioral traits and know whats questionable.
Don’t even bother with the leakdown and compression testing, its just a waste of money.

As my video series on bore scoring is released weekly we are getting closer and closer to the video where l show you how to find a scored bore with a 5mm allen wrench, a spark plug socket, and a 32.00 bore scope from Amazon. The focus now is on the .1 engine, but later in the spring l plan to do a .2 engine, as the procedures are vastly different.

Most PPI inspectors approach these cars like they have no problems, so they don;t know where to look. In an hour or less l can usually find a problem that they’ve overlooked. l look at the engine objectively, like there’s a problem and l just have to find it. l treat a PPI like a pre- flight inspection, and thats the key.
Thank you for commenting and adding some technical details to the thread. I look forward to the videos with great anticipation. The teardown video of Bronz' engine was very interesting and while disturbing seeing the condition of the cylinder it was a little comforting seeing that it may be an anomaly. Interesting though is the #1 cylinder failed as was another poster in this thread said his #1 cylinder failed 2 years ago in his 997.2 base model. (Gopirates)
Is there something there or is it just a strange coincidence? His also showed oil in the cylinder also.
Also besides a borescope being mandatory, is there anything else one should insist on being done for a 997.2 engine side of a PPI?
Thanks again.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:39 AM
  #40  
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#1 has been the more prominent in the last 3-4 of these that we have seen..
This most recent one of Bronz' is a horse of a different color, though. All of us here, as well as charles at LN saw the same traits before we even spoke to each other.
I will know more in a week or so, but we are all thinking the same thing on this one.

Any PPI should include dropping the sump, and looking for debris.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:02 AM
  #41  
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I can get a drive train warranty on my 09 C2S that won't break the bank. My concern is they would do everything possible to disallow any claim as a pre-existing condition, rather than pay for what a 997.2 engine costs to repair.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:53 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Balr14 View Post
I can get a drive train warranty on my 09 C2S that won't break the bank. My concern is they would do everything possible to disallow any claim as a pre-existing condition, rather than pay for what a 997.2 engine costs to repair.
Look into a LaSalle Warranty. We have done all their Porsche claims for a few years, and I have never seen the owner turn anyone down. He is a straight shooter that handles most of the business himself. I have seen them be more than fair with claims. they are the ONLY warranty company I will accept work from.
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:50 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations View Post
#1 has been the more prominent in the last 3-4 of these that we have seen..
This most recent one of Bronz' is a horse of a different color, though. All of us here, as well as charles at LN saw the same traits before we even spoke to each other.
I will know more in a week or so, but we are all thinking the same thing on this one.

Any PPI should include dropping the sump, and looking for debris.
Thank you
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:27 PM
  #44  
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Have to stop by my indie in a few weeks for a couple of things - is $400 for checking bores within realm of how much time it takes?
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