G.I.G.

I started researching used 997’s about a month ago and have been lurking quietly in the background here. There is a ton of useful information here to digest. I’m glad I came across this forum.

I’m fully aware that newbs on Internet forums are often like the person that walks right into a conversation and starts asking questions and interjects their opinions without having a clue. You have to adhere to the 3 minute rule! LOL. With that disclaimer, I still have a few outstanding questions that I wasn’t able to find answers to here or in other forums/articles. I’d also appreciate some personal opinions from those of you in the know.

Oil changes: DIY vs. Indy Shop? I’ve watched a couple of YouTube videos, and it seems super easy to change the oil on these cars. When going to sell, do Porsche buyers balk at DIYers that have done some of the basic maintenance themselves if they’ve kept the receipts? I’m inclined to change the oil myself, but am not completely opposed to have a local indy shop do it for convenience and resell down the road.

Body width: Does a 4 or S make it wide? I’ve read and heard two things, both contradict one another. First, that the S gets the extra girth, regardless if it’s a 4 or not. Then I’ve also read that it’s the 4 that is wider, regardless if it’s an S or not. Can anyone clarify this?

Seasonal price increases? For the owners who live or have bought cars in colder climates, do you see prices increase on used 911’s going into Spring or Summer months? The reason I ask is because we are planning a pretty large home renovation where a lot of stuff will be placed in our garage, so cars might need to be parked in the driveway for a couple of months. Ideally I will be waiting until later this Spring to buy a 997, but could jump on it sooner if I come across the right one.

Black gauges on some S models: I’ve come across a couple of ‘05/’06 S’s that have black gauges instead of white. I’m a sucker for the white gauges and couldn’t figure out why a couple of them had black gauges. I thought that white gauges were a standard part of the S package. Am I missing something? FWIW, both examples I found with the black gauges also had black exteriors. But I’ve also seen some S’s with white gauges with a black exterior. I’m trying to find out if there is a rhyme or reason why some have the white gauges, and some don’t.

Sport Chrono for MT’s: I’ve read several articles and posts regarding the Sport Chrono Package on 997’s. It sounds like it’s a must-have for triptronic auto’s, but what about manual transmissions? For those of you who have first-hand experience, does the Sport Chrono package change the way the car performs enough to make a difference with a manual transmission? From watching Jeremy Clarkson’s review from the old Top Gear episode, he makes it sound like it turns the 997.1 into a racing machine with the flick of a switch, yet the HP doesn’t increase and with a manual, you’re obviously in charge of the shift points. I’m looking to buy a manual and am trying to determine if the Sport Chrono Package should be a consideration in my search.

After reading about all of the IMS and bore scoring issues here and on other forums, one would think you should run, not walk, away from 997.1’s. However, I talked to a local shop here in Littleton, CO to get their opinion. Their Porsche mechanic said he did the ceramic bearing swap (not the full “solution”) on his own 996 and he was good to go. He also said the IMS bearing issue is real, but has been overblown. His recommendation was to find an ‘06-‘08 that has the larger IMS bearing, get it checked out, keep it well maintained and oil topped off, then drive it and have fun. Anyone here disagree with that?

From my estimation by reading the threads here on IMS failures and bore scoring, it sounds like it’s the bore scoring that is more likely to plague 997.1 owners than IMS bearing failures. Lot’s of rules for these cars....don’t buy them in cold climates, but you need to buy a third radiator and low temp thermostat so it doesn’t run too hot. Let them warm up very gently before you get on the gas, but then don’t get on the gas too much because they’re too warm. And don’t even look at them after midnight! Is it like owning a gremlin? LOL. In all seriousness, I feel for the people that have had to rebuild an engine that was well maintained with under 100k miles. That royally sucks. Common logic would tell me to avoid a 997.1 at all costs, but I can’t seem to find a 997.2 in my price range (which has already increased by 25% since I started looking, BTW) that doesn’t have high mileage and/or has been involved in an accident. I’ve been following bronz’ plight with his 997.2 engine failure which leads me to believe the 997.2’s aren’t bullet proof either. I know his situation seems to be an outlier and I will be interested to hear more on that. I’m trying to determine if I should eliminate 997.1’s from my search entirely and just hold off for when/if I can afford a 997.2.

Anyway, so much still to learn and discover. Thanks in advance.

C4SDayton

I am newer too and looked for a good 4 months. Also in midwest and driving year round including minus 10 F early this week. I will try to help.

Do whatever service you can time permitting. Keep a log and receipts. Buyers should be fine. Some prefer buying from someone not clueless.
There is some premium for sports cars and motorcycles in spring at least for places with real winters.
The 4 and 4S are wide body. The 2 and 2S have the narrow little back end. Only an inch or so total, but sometimes an extra inch in the place is all it takes. Colorado, go 4S or 4 and enjoy all 4 seasons!
My 4S has whitish/silvery stock gauges. Red or yellow would be cool, but sometimes I wish I had black...old school!
I have a manual. I'd say get sport chrono because alot seem to expect it. I would be happy with no wart on my dash, it is pretty but pretty useless for me personally. PASM...yes or no, I do not use on street. I'd take sport exhaust over either but have all three.
If you find a great one, jump on it. 06-08 preferred. Get a low temp TStat. Drive. Warm up like you care about it. Don't open a thread that says bore scoring in the title.

otuA

Oil Changes: It is very normal to DIY oil changes, and if you keep receipts that should be more than enough documentation down the road. I also get an oil analysis done each time, which is further "proof" of regular oil changes should some future buyer care.

Widebody: 4, 4S, and GTS are the wide Carrera models

Sport Chrono: I have a 6MT and love the sharper throttle response you get with Sport Chrono. It makes the car feel much more eager and athletic to drive, but probably doesn't make it any faster. It's like having a short shifter or a sports exhaust in my opinion. It's actually too sensitive for daily driving in my opinion, so its fun to switch it on when I'm in the mountains or on track. Supposedly the traction control is less intrusive in Sport too, but I don't notice that as much.

A late model 997.1 has proven to be pretty reliable. They are 13 years old now and IMS failures are still not really a thing. You should still wait for the engine to properly warm up, but that will be the same for any car not unique to the 911. I also wouldn't be so quick to write off a car with a reported accident until you actually discover what the accident was. A lot of the time it is a minor cosmetic repair that will be well documented and should not scare a serious buyer.

Happy hunting!

bradthe

DIY OR INDY? RECORDS...RECEIPTS OK AS LONG AS YOU SEEM LIKE A COMPETENT PERSON I WOULD BELIEVE YOU.

BODY? ANSWERED

SEASONAL- YES ALWAYS SEASONAL INCREASE IN PRICE....WE ALL GET RANDY IN THE SPRINGTIME!

BLACK GAUGES-I HAVE WHITE-NEVER CONSIDERED CHANGING GAUGES ON A CAR-EITHER I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY OR DON'T SEE THE VALUE IN ADDING NO HORSEPOWER.

SPORT CHRONO- I HAVE IT, AND I LIKE IT....MAKES THROTTLE RESPONSE MORE CRISP...I HAVE PASM WHICH IS NICE TO CLICK IT ON IF I AM HEADING FOR A NICE BUTTON-HOOK OFF-RAMP, OTHERWISE I LEAVE THE SUSPENSION IN SOFT MODE....AND I HAVE SPORTS EXHAUST WHICH IS NICE IF YOU WANT SOME HELP TO HEAR WHAT THE ENGINE IS UP TO, AND WHEN THE WIFE DRIVES IT IT'S QUIET ENOUGH.

MINE IS 2006 C4S MANUAL...78K ON THE ODO...MY MECHANIC TELLS ME I HAVE THE NEWER IMS AND I HAVE NO SIGNS OF ANYTHING GOING SOUTH...I AM TOLD 5K INTERVAL ON OIL AND I'VE DONE THAT...I LOOK AT THE MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE IN MY BOOK, AND MY INDY DOESN'T TELL ME TO DO ANYTHING EXTRA...HE LIKES THE EARLIER VERSION BETTER AND SAYS THEY HAVE FEWER PROBLEMS THAN 991.

GET ONE AND DRIVE FAST!

jll1011

Love this comment from C4SDayton. Another suggestion is "don't open threads on IMS failures". I did that at the beginning of my 997.1 ownership and it freaked me out a bit. If you go with a 997.1, try to grab a late 2005+ (most folks say 2006). Mine is a late 2005 with the larger IMS bearing which has the lowest failure rates (1%). If you buy one, you won't regret it. This forum is loaded with folks that are willing to answer questions and help. I have been helped numerous times already.

Every day I walk by my 997 in the garage and admire it. What a classic shape! I drive it to church on Sundays (no joke) and sometimes i even take it out on Saturday! For me, it is a bit of a garage queen but do enjoy modifying and admiring it.

doclouie

996AE

Zero post, new to P cars and RL and troll style questions?

Enjoy.

cwheeler

.1 are great cars and you get a bit of a price cut. 06-08 to be safe on ims, especially if you're looking for super low mileage. New track of your diy work and do it right. Bore scoring is overblown like the IMS, and seems to occur when the piston heats up faster than the cylinder. If properly warmed up, this should be a non-issue late stage scoring can be seen through the plug hole with a bore scope. But would also be associated with heavy oil usage, and sooty dirty exhaust tips.

I think buying a car with as many options as possible will help resale.

Lastly, to update the pcm to this century, install a LaPower Bluetooth module. And if you want to go further, there is a current thread going to mirror your iPhone screen so that you have maps on your dash. It's not a perfect Apple CarPlay solution, but keeps the stock look and functionality and works extremely well.

Cw

G.I.G.

Thank you all for the feedback! I promise I won't post any new "Bore Scoring" or "IMS" threads. LOL. I've already been down that rabbit hole, which is why I was starting to freak out a little bit about buying a 997.1. All of the reading I have done has almost scared me away from them completely. It sounds like it is still a viable option if you find one that is well maintained.

And thank you for the clarification on the width of different models. The Wiki page for the 997 has it wrong, hence my question. "The Carrera S also used a wider body shell than the standard Carrera, making it easily distinguishable from the base model."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_997

Great point on the PCM on the .1's vs. the .2's. I did factor that into the pros/cons of the different versions, not just the engine. I can get over the dated look of the .1's PCM, as long as I can figure out an Aux In or Bluetooth option. I've been reading some threads on that and it sounds like there are some good options to address that on the .1's without a complete HU swap.

Although I live in CO, I should have mentioned that I have an '07 4Runner which I plan on keeping as my DD. It has full-time 4-wheel drive, 33" A/T tires, etc. Plus, it's old so I don't care about rock chips, mag chloride, etc. on that car. It's an absolute boss in the snow, so a 911 would only be a weekend/occasional driver for me. That's why I'm looking for a rear-wheel drive 997, preferably a C2S. I don't envision putting more than 4k-5k miles on it per year. The nice thing with Colorado is that even though it snows here, we often get mild/dry spells in the winter, so you can still take a 2-wheel drive car out for some spins as long as you keep an eye on the weather so you don't get stuck out in it.

sandwedge

They definitely got that wrong. The 997 Carrera S has the exact same body dimensions as the non S base model. Wide body models for the 997 were the C4, C4S, GTS, 4 GTS, Turbo, Turbo S, GT2 and GT3 RS. As for white or black gauges, the base model Carrera came standard with black gauges and the Carrera S came standard with white gauges. As with everything else when ordering a Porsche though you can specify just about anything and some buyers ordered cars of any model with white/silver, black, red or yellow gauges.

zdet

G.I.G., I just sent you a PM. I'm also in Colorado. Feel free to reach out.

Petza914

First off, nice job doing your research - it's obvious you've been following along for a while as your questions and info are accurate and well-stated, which we certainly appreciate. I'll supply my opinions to your questions and we'll go through them 1 by 1...

If you're capable of doing your own oil changes properly, there is no reason to take the car to the dealer or an indy to have the oil changed. Honestly, you'll do a more thorough and more careful job than most of them will (proper drain interval, care to not overfill the crankcase, proper torque to the drain plug, etc). Just keep a service log with dates, mileage, fluids and filters used, and the next buyer should be perfectly fine with that.


It's actually easier to name the NB cars than the widebody, as there are only 3 - Base C2, C2S, and GT3 (but not the RS). Everything else is widebody, including both the Targa models (4 & 4S). The confusion might stem from the 996 series, where the C2S was also a widebody car - all Ss were but that did not carryover to the 997 generation. Honestly, it's not a big deal at about 1" per side and I actually think the shape of the narrow body cars is more pure. The widebody cars get a flat spot in the middle of the rear fenders on the top whereas the NB have a continuous compound curve there. The taillights on the NB cars also go just about to the edge of the car whereas there's extra bumper outside the taillight on the WB cars, which I don't think looks quite as nice. The 997 body is plenty curvy enough with that classic "Coke-bottle" shape where it really doesn't matter. On the 996s it did, and quite a bit, since the sides were very straight without the flares at the front and rear with the skinnier beltline at the doors.

Both of my 997s are NBs and still look plenty wide at the rear.






Boats, motorcycles, and sports cars are less expensive in the Winter and more expensive in the Spring.


S cars had white gauges standard. They could be changed either with the order (red, yellow, etc) and some who didn't like them have replaced either their complete gauge cluster or the gauge panel in the cluster with different colors. FVD is one company that sells the gauge face plate color options.

@C4SDayton, I have a spare black faced gauge cluster if you're still thinking about going old-school with yours.



The pink car is a C2S MT with Sport Chrono and is my wife's, but I've obviously driven it since I'm her Indy I personally don't like the Sport mode throttle mapping with a MT car. It becomes more difficult to modulate and balance in corners, is more difficult to launch smoothly when not just taking off. To me, it's the same sensation as using a SprintBooster, which simply augments the drive by wire signal from the throttle pedal to the throttle body, but isn't any different than pushing the pedal faster and further, quicker. Sport mode in the 997 is a little different than that as it also changes timing, etc.

The other problem with an S that has SC on a MT car IF YOU HAVE THE PSE EXHAUST, is that you lose the the ability to independently control the PSE exhaust with a dash button. With SC & PSE you only get a SPORT button and a PASM shock button, so you can hit the sport button that opens the exhaust, changes the throttle mapping, and puts the suspension into sport mode, then you can press the PASM button to go back to normal suspension ride, but the only way to get the sport exhaust is to be in sport mode with the throttle mapping change, or to disconnect the electric vacuum solenoid so the exhaust is in sport all the time - not the best thing when leaving the neighborhood at 5:00 AM for a flight. If you find a car with PSE, and it's a MT, it's best to not have the SC option because then you get a dedicated button for PSE and a dedicated button for PASM, like this - from L to R - spoiler, PASM, PSE, then far right PSM. If you have SC, the PSE button becomes the SPORT button.



While we're talking about PASM... stock PASM is just OK, but if you look at the car being equipped with it as a building block so that you can replace the stock PASM controller with TPC's DSC controller than makes PASM fully active based on G-forces, then it's a great thing to have.



Late 05 through 08 cars SHOULD have the larger, single row IMS bearing. This one is non-replaceable, but also has a lower failure rate. For any 05 car, the only way to be certain which bearing you have is to pull the transmission and look at the bearing flange nut - larger nut = larger bearing / smaller nut = smaller bearing





If you need a guideline from the IMS lawsuit, then

There are three different serial number types for the three engine variants in our cars - base model M96.05 3.6L engines, S-model M97.01 3.8L engines, and the X51 power kit M97.01S 3.8L engines. All three have slightly different engine serial number formats.

For S-model non-X51 M97.01 engines the serial number is of the format M97/0168YXXXXX. The last 8 digits matter and are the following format:
685XXXXX = M97 for MY05
686XXXXX = M97 for MY06
687XXXXX = M97 for MY07

So the first two digits are 68, followed by the year digit, followed by a five digit serial number. But the full serial is M97/0168YXXXXX.

For X51 engines I believe the format is M97/01S68YXXXXX (added 'S' between 01 and 68).

3.6L base engines have a similar format M96/0569YXXXXX (not positive on the 05, can someone check?).

With replacement engines there is an 'AT' in front of the final eight digits. So a S-model 3.8L factory replacement engine the format would look like M97/01AT68YXXXXX.

For 3.8L motors, up to M97/01 68509790 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.

For 3.6L motors, if the engine s/n is M96/05 69507476 and up it has the larger bearing.


Hope that helps.

okbarnett

widebodys have plastic rocker panels and narrow dont have any cover on the rocker panels just metal with visible pinch seam

Petza914

You have a picture of what you're describing here. My 997s have plastic rocker panels with textured paint along the bottom portion - you can see the textured paint transition line right at the bottom of the stone guard.


I'll be adding some CF-look Moshammer RS side skirts to this area next time I put it up on the lift to continue my exterior CF trim theme. One of these days I'm also going to strip the silver paint off the upper CF wing like how RUF produced it, which will finish that up. The PO painted it silver to match the car.

G.I.G.

Awesome, thanks! PM sent