Searching for a 997 – Some Questions/Observations
01-24-2019, 02:04 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
It's actually easier to name the NB cars than the widebody, as there are only 3 - Base C2, C2S, and GT3 (but not the RS). Everything else is widebody, including both the Targa models (4 & 4S). [b]The confusion might stem from the 996 series, where the C2S was also a widebody car - all Ss were but that did not carryover to the 997 generation. Honestly, it's not a big deal at about 1" per side and I actually think the shape of the narrow body cars is more pure. The widebody cars get a flat spot in the middle of the rear fenders on the top whereas the NB have a continuous compound curve there. The taillights on the NB cars also go just about to the edge of the car whereas there's extra bumper outside the taillight on the WB cars, which I don't think looks quite as nice. The 997 body is plenty curvy enough with that classic "Coke-bottle" shape where it really doesn't matter. On the 996s it did, and quite a bit, since the sides were very straight without the flares at the front and rear with the skinnier beltline at the doors.
The picture of your wife's car brings up another question I had. Why do some 911's have the 911 badge, and some have the Carerra badge? Having just learned about the customizable options for the gauge cluster colors, I'm assuming that his is yet another of the many cosmetic options you could order through Porsche? Or did certain years/models get the 911 badge instead of the Carerra badge?
Originally Posted by Petza914
The pink car is a C2S MT with Sport Chrono and is my wife's, but I've obviously driven it since I'm her Indy 
I personally don't like the Sport mode throttle mapping with a MT car. It becomes more difficult to modulate and balance in corners, is more difficult to launch smoothly when not just taking off. To me, it's the same sensation as using a SprintBooster, which simply augments the drive by wire signal from the throttle pedal to the throttle body, but isn't any different than pushing the pedal faster and further, quicker. Sport mode in the 997 is a little different than that as it also changes timing, etc.
The other problem with an S that has SC on a MT car IF YOU HAVE THE PSE EXHAUST, is that you lose the the ability to independently control the PSE exhaust with a dash button. With SC & PSE you only get a SPORT button and a PASM shock button, so you can hit the sport button that opens the exhaust, changes the throttle mapping, and puts the suspension into sport mode, then you can press the PASM button to go back to normal suspension ride, but the only way to get the sport exhaust is to be in sport mode with the throttle mapping change, or to disconnect the electric vacuum solenoid so the exhaust is in sport all the time - not the best thing when leaving the neighborhood at 5:00 AM for a flight. If you find a car with PSE, and it's a MT, it's best to not have the SC option because then you get a dedicated button for PSE and a dedicated button for PASM, like this - from L to R - spoiler, PASM, PSE, then far right PSM. If you have SC, the PSE button becomes the SPORT button.
While we're talking about PASM... stock PASM is just OK, but if you look at the car being equipped with it as a building block so that you can replace the stock PASM controller with TPC's DSC controller than makes PASM fully active based on G-forces, then it's a great thing to have.
I personally don't like the Sport mode throttle mapping with a MT car. It becomes more difficult to modulate and balance in corners, is more difficult to launch smoothly when not just taking off. To me, it's the same sensation as using a SprintBooster, which simply augments the drive by wire signal from the throttle pedal to the throttle body, but isn't any different than pushing the pedal faster and further, quicker. Sport mode in the 997 is a little different than that as it also changes timing, etc.The other problem with an S that has SC on a MT car IF YOU HAVE THE PSE EXHAUST, is that you lose the the ability to independently control the PSE exhaust with a dash button. With SC & PSE you only get a SPORT button and a PASM shock button, so you can hit the sport button that opens the exhaust, changes the throttle mapping, and puts the suspension into sport mode, then you can press the PASM button to go back to normal suspension ride, but the only way to get the sport exhaust is to be in sport mode with the throttle mapping change, or to disconnect the electric vacuum solenoid so the exhaust is in sport all the time - not the best thing when leaving the neighborhood at 5:00 AM for a flight. If you find a car with PSE, and it's a MT, it's best to not have the SC option because then you get a dedicated button for PSE and a dedicated button for PASM, like this - from L to R - spoiler, PASM, PSE, then far right PSM. If you have SC, the PSE button becomes the SPORT button.
While we're talking about PASM... stock PASM is just OK, but if you look at the car being equipped with it as a building block so that you can replace the stock PASM controller with TPC's DSC controller than makes PASM fully active based on G-forces, then it's a great thing to have.
I've been looking for a comprehensive list of the options from Porsche for the model years I'm looking at, but haven't been able to find a definitive source. Most of them sound cosmetic. I just need to determine the 3 or 4 I definitely want so I can search accordingly.
Originally Posted by Petza914
Late 05 through 08 cars SHOULD have the larger, single row IMS bearing. This one is non-replaceable, but also has a lower failure rate. For any 05 car, the only way to be certain which bearing you have is to pull the transmission and look at the bearing flange nut - larger nut = larger bearing / smaller nut = smaller bearing
If you need a guideline from the IMS lawsuit, then
There are three different serial number types for the three engine variants in our cars - base model M96.05 3.6L engines, S-model M97.01 3.8L engines, and the X51 power kit M97.01S 3.8L engines. All three have slightly different engine serial number formats.
For S-model non-X51 M97.01 engines the serial number is of the format M97/0168YXXXXX. The last 8 digits matter and are the following format:
685XXXXX = M97 for MY05
686XXXXX = M97 for MY06
687XXXXX = M97 for MY07
So the first two digits are 68, followed by the year digit, followed by a five digit serial number. But the full serial is M97/0168YXXXXX.
For X51 engines I believe the format is M97/01S68YXXXXX (added 'S' between 01 and 68).
3.6L base engines have a similar format M96/0569YXXXXX (not positive on the 05, can someone check?).
With replacement engines there is an 'AT' in front of the final eight digits. So a S-model 3.8L factory replacement engine the format would look like M97/01AT68YXXXXX.
[b]For 3.8L motors, up to M97/01 68509790 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.
For 3.6L motors, if the engine s/n is M96/05 69507476 and up it has the larger bearing.
Hope that helps.
If you need a guideline from the IMS lawsuit, then
There are three different serial number types for the three engine variants in our cars - base model M96.05 3.6L engines, S-model M97.01 3.8L engines, and the X51 power kit M97.01S 3.8L engines. All three have slightly different engine serial number formats.
For S-model non-X51 M97.01 engines the serial number is of the format M97/0168YXXXXX. The last 8 digits matter and are the following format:
685XXXXX = M97 for MY05
686XXXXX = M97 for MY06
687XXXXX = M97 for MY07
So the first two digits are 68, followed by the year digit, followed by a five digit serial number. But the full serial is M97/0168YXXXXX.
For X51 engines I believe the format is M97/01S68YXXXXX (added 'S' between 01 and 68).
3.6L base engines have a similar format M96/0569YXXXXX (not positive on the 05, can someone check?).
With replacement engines there is an 'AT' in front of the final eight digits. So a S-model 3.8L factory replacement engine the format would look like M97/01AT68YXXXXX.
[b]For 3.8L motors, up to M97/01 68509790 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.
For 3.6L motors, if the engine s/n is M96/05 69507476 and up it has the larger bearing.
Hope that helps.
01-24-2019, 03:47 PM
#17
RL Community Team
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The picture of your wife's car brings up another question I had. Why do some 911's have the 911 badge, and some have the Carerra badge? Having just learned about the customizable options for the gauge cluster colors, I'm assuming that his is yet another of the many cosmetic options you could order through Porsche? Or did certain years/models get the 911 badge instead of the Carerra badge?
Do all of the S's have PSE standard, or was that another add-on? According to the Wiki page, it is standard for S's, but we've already found the Wiki page to be inaccurate I've been looking for a comprehensive list of the options from Porsche for the model years I'm looking at, but haven't been able to find a definitive source. Most of them sound cosmetic. I just need to determine the 3 or 4 I definitely want so I can search accordingly.
I've been looking for a comprehensive list of the options from Porsche for the model years I'm looking at, but haven't been able to find a definitive source. Most of them sound cosmetic. I just need to determine the 3 or 4 I definitely want so I can search accordingly.- full leather interior, which means the tops of the doors, the top of the dash and a couple other areas are leather instead of plastic, which gives a much nicer feel to the inside of the car.
- Black or Cocoa interior, but this is totally a personal choice. Black is the easiest color to find used parts for if you'll be changing seats, adding leather bits, etc. The Natural leather options are also a step above where they are thicker and not sealed so more rich feeling - I don't have any cars with Natural.
- Adaptive Sport Seats, whether they're in the car or I install them later
- PCCB Brakes, whether they're in the car or I install them later - they're super expensive to do later so if you want them, best to find a car already equipped with them. I just upgraded my Cayenne to them since very few 2009 957 Turbo S Cayennes were even produced with them, but they're out there on 997s if you look.
It sounds like most people just hit the easy button and avoid '05's in their search so there is no question that they have the larger IMS bearing. But this might bring '05 back on the table for me knowing that I can reference specific serial numbers. Are the serial numbers easy to see if you pop the trunk (still not sure if it's call a "trunk" or a "hood" on a rear engine car. LOL) or do you need to crawl under it to see it? I saw a beautiful '05 C2S, black on black, Sport Chrono, etc. with only 41k miles a couple of weeks ago listed at a dealership here in town. I wasn't in a hurry to go see it because it was an '05, but it's since sold. I definitely won't rule out '05's with this information now!
If the 05 you passed on was a Launch car, that would have been a good one.
01-24-2019, 03:58 PM
#18
Intermediate
01-24-2019, 06:28 PM
#19
Pro
Thread Starter
01-24-2019, 07:33 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
I have had sport chrono in my Cayman S and my 997.2 C2S (both manual) and never use it. I don't like the throttle map changes. The novelty wears off quickly and it's way too twitchy and difficult to modulate the throttle in corners. It also completely ruins my feel for throttle/clutch modulation when shifting gears or starting from a stop, usually resulting in the clutch getting ridden a bit because I gave it more gas than I meant to due to the aggressive throttle mapping. I leave it off for street driving and autocross.
01-25-2019, 12:19 AM
#21
Pro
Thread Starter
If I were in the market for another 997, I would seek out an 05 C2S Launch Editiion. A launch car is the package that Porsche uses to introduce a new model and the package for the 997.1 C2S was awesome - full leather, power adaptive sport seats, Sport Chrono, PCCB brakes, and a few other things, but you have to like Black on Black, as that's the only way they came....
....If the 05 you passed on was a Launch car, that would have been a good one.
....If the 05 you passed on was a Launch car, that would have been a good one.
01-25-2019, 11:40 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Oil changes: DIY vs. Indy Shop? Indy (my preference).
Body width: Does a 4 or S make it wide? 997 wide body models: carrera 4, carrera 4S, carrera GTS, carrera 4 GTS, targa 4, targa 4S, turbo, turbo S, GT3 RS (edited: add GT2, GT2 RS, sport classic and speedster).
Seasonal price increases? yes, spring and summer.
Black gauges on some S models: I have no idea.
Sport Chrono for MT’s: not really necessary with MT (IMO)
Body width: Does a 4 or S make it wide? 997 wide body models: carrera 4, carrera 4S, carrera GTS, carrera 4 GTS, targa 4, targa 4S, turbo, turbo S, GT3 RS (edited: add GT2, GT2 RS, sport classic and speedster).
Seasonal price increases? yes, spring and summer.
Black gauges on some S models: I have no idea.
Sport Chrono for MT’s: not really necessary with MT (IMO)
Last edited by ElectricChair; 01-25-2019 at 12:19 PM.
01-25-2019, 11:57 AM
#23
RL Community Team
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That's why I said it's easier to just list the NB models, as there are only 3 - C2, C2S, & GT3 (non RS version)