Zoefhaus

IMPorsche

Not into the car for sale, but really interested on the answer to this question.

raidersfan

Carfax mainly relies on police records, from what I understand. They occasionally pull info from insurance company claims, but not always. Not every accident is reported to the police. Friends in the trade estimate that Carfax is 70-80% accurate. Another guy here had a $600 ding in his rear bumper from a careless parking-lot Prius driver (let's blame Prius drivers for all of our problems!); as a cop was rolling through the parking lot, he stopped and recorded it. Voila, hit on the carfax and loss of thousands in value on his pristine 997.2.

Zoefhaus

Regardless of whether it is recorded on the Carfax, the decent thing to do would be to mention it in the ad...
If everything is well documented and satisfactorily repaired, it will not deter potential buyers.

nwGTS

you're right.
.i forgot about that incident.
it should be disclosed IMO

raidersfan

Agreed, but without a doubt, hurts resale value. Even if repairs are done professionally, be prepared to say goodbye to $5,000 worth of sale value.

bmwfan328

Exactly my point. I wish Sandwedge the best in his sale, and it sounds like he has a serious interested buyer that will probably never see this thread. I think it is at the very least deceptive to not even whisper the fact this car was in a significant collision in the for sale ad, while asking IMO (we all know what they say about opinions...) all of the money for a GTS in the current market with a "perfectly clean" Carfax. The well documented thread about the repair (which appears to be done at the highest level) should ease the mind of any potential buyer who only cares that the car goes down the road in a straight line and doesn't make any funny noises. However, most of us are **** about our cars, and an undisclosed $16k repair that shows up on a Carfax months down the road would be quite the surprise/psychological mindf*ck to any future owner. Just the fact that the OP sought and successfully collected a diminished value check from the insurance company tells me that he knows how bad the incident SHOULD affect a future sale. At the end of the day, the car will sell what someone thinks it is worth, but that person should be provided all of the details to determine that worth.

raidersfan

I just posted this in the deals thread, but again, it is a similar question. Carfax issues, 2 accidents, and obviously worth less, but how much?

https://portland.craigslist.org/yam/...801143917.html

C4SDayton

Plenty of accidents show 1-2 years later.

IMPorsche

I guess a good PPI is well worth the $$ spent when buying used.

sandwedge

Here's my reasoning on this. First off, I was shocked to learn that nothing showed up on Carfax. More importantly though, the repairs were done by a body shop with a nationwide reputation for exquisite work. There was an antique Packard in the shop recently, trucked in from Chicago and there are other similar stories. Chicago is a big city but they don't have a body shop as good as the one I used in Sarasota, FL? The owner of the shop is a perfectionist who told me more than once that no car leaves his shop unless the repairs are "undetectable". He even uses the exact same brand of paint as Porsche uses in their factory. He also gives you a lifetime warranty on the work he does.

The only negative I can think of is that maybe he's a bit too much of a perfectionist. The amount of the repair was greatly inflated by the fact that he insisted the engine had to be removed in order to access and properly paint a panel that had a small scratch on it. This obviously added a large amount to the final tab which makes it look like a much bigger deal than it was

In summary, I got a new rear bumper, painted to factory specs, a new Sharkwerks bypass system, a set of new tail pipes and a resprayed front bumper along with a new clear bra. My car was pushed into the car in front of me when I was rear ended and there was a tiny scratch on the front bumper which to my eyes looked very minor. But again, the shop owner insisted it be fixed along with a new clear bra. To me, I have a better car now than I had before this event. So with a warrantied "undetectable" repair and a clean Carfax report the buyers I'm working with are in my opinion being reasonable in agreeing with me that it's not worth less than one with original, sometimes beat up bumpers. Both are aware of the repair and both have been given the name and phone number of the shop owner in charge of the repairs.

As the shop owner told me, anyone who thinks a 996, 997 or even 991's with no Carfax indication of front or rear bumper work/paint hasn't had any of that needs to think again. Many or maybe most of them are done out of pocket for cosmetic reasons without involvement of the insurance company and he said there's a lot of that kind of cosmetic work done out there that flies under the radar.

Ben Z

bmwfan328

For the record, your GTS is my dream Carerra with the exception of the PDK. Otherwise, great spec and quality mods. Also, you're a valuable member here on Rennlist, always chiming in with useful and knowledgeable information.

My intention was not to derail any potential buyers, only to start a discussion about the omission of the accident from the for sale ad. I have no doubt it was repaired as good or even better than factory, but if you truly think that a repair of this quality has no effect on value, then why even contemplate, let alone collect, a diminished value check? Based on the current market for a 60k mile GTS, my opinion is $69k is asking for full value of a truly clean car. And sure Carfax is 'perfectly clean' at the moment, but who's to say that it doesn't catch up with the incident six months or a year down the road? Carfax is flaky at best, and if it does show up, the next owner is sure to take a hit on resale. I am relieved to hear you've been honest about the accident with prospective buyers who have inquired about the car, but the timeline is a bit suspect. Was the omission in the ad to broaden your pool of potential buyers? Do you tell them before they view the car in person, or do you reel them in, let them see/drive that beauty, and hope the good outweighs the bad? Memory can be a bit foggy at times, but I believe I've seen posts about how you hope your car makes it to 200k miles, 991 is numb to you, you plan to keep your GTS, etc. It looks as though the decision to sell is based more on the currently clean Carfax after a significant repair bill, than the psychological effect of passing 60k miles. Again, just friendly discussion, personal attack not intended.

Busta Rib

I'm with bmwfan328 on this one. Regardless of how minor the accident or repair, it was still an accident: body panels were damaged/painted/repaired. It should have been disclosed. Most people wouldn't have been deterred and if anything, would appreciate the high-quality of the repairs. But there are a small percentage of buyers who do care and don't want ANY accident history, even little fender benders.

The right thing to do would have been to disclose the incident and let the market decide. I think that is the gist of what we're getting at when it comes to listing a car for sale. Regardless, best of luck with your sale if you do sell. It is a great-looking car and no doubt in excellent condition.

sandwedge

That's offensive and I'm being polite now. You don't know me from Adam and you certainly don't know the first thing about the discussions I've had with potential buyers so calm yourself down with your accusations and suspicions please. I'm not out to defraud anyone. If I was, why would I have started a thread on RL about my incident, creating a perfect record of it? I had no intent of selling the car at that point but I'd be a fool not to consider the possibility of selling it at one point or another so why would this thread of mine have been created if my underlying intent was to compromise disclosure? The main reason the repair wasn't/isn't disclosed in the ad is based on the experience I had when I traded in my -06 C4S at Champion Porsche in Pompano Beach, FL . This is the largest volume Porsche dealer in the nation.

When I brought my trade in, a guy came outside, drove the car around the building, then walked around the car and finally broke out the paint meter. He measured every panel on the car EXCEPT the front and rear bumpers. I asked him out of curiosity why he skipped the bumpers. His answer: "At least every other trade we get in here with some years and miles on them has had the front or the rear bumper (or both) resprayed or replaced. We don't care about the bumpers as long as the repairs are visually undetectable and there was no air bag deployment or other Carfax mention of the bumper job. We do care about all other panels though". So why should I blabber about a simple, perfectly done bumper replacement when the largest volume Porsche dealer in the nation considers it a non issue? Unless you bought your car new, chances are you have a resprayed or replaced front or rear bumper too. And even if you did buy your car brand new you could still have repaired or replaced body panels. Not unheard of at all of brand new cars sold at full retail with repaired or replaced bumpers or other panels after damage that occurred during shipping from Europe.

As for me asking for DM. Why not? The shop owner went overboard by removing the engine in order to properly paint a panel inside the engine bay. Again, as I understand it, this was merely a scratch that had no impact on handling or performance and could barely be seen even with the bumper removed. Had I known the details of this I would probably have told him to leave it alone since the engine removal almost tripled the cost of the repair and made it look much worse than it actually was. The car had to flat bedded to the local Porsche dealer for the engine removal, then back to the body shop, back again to the dealer for the engine to be installed and then finally back to the body shop. All this excess was the reason I asked for DV, assuming it would all show up on Carfax looking like a major event rather than a bumper replacement.

See my response to bmwfan328 above please..