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Pros:
* Fast acceleration
* Better for environment
Cons:
* Ugly (especially the interiors on the Model 3) - they will age similar to how interiors from the early/mid 80s aged when everything was LCD "digital"
* Performance is non-repeatable (you can't really push them hard for an extended drive as they overheat)
* Not necessarily much better for the environment depending on actual battery disposal/sourcing/entire supply chain for energy and vehicle/battery production
* In its infancy - you don't get much vs. other cars at same price point - and total cost of ownership is higher (vs. similar cars)
* All the usual "driver passion" issues that are frankly less relevant for sedans and cars intended for commuting. For sports cars, highly relevant and I already don't care to ever get a Nissan GTR for those same types of reasons...
I am not opposed to electrification but the cars on the market are not quite there imho. I am curious about the Taycan to see if it addresses a lot of the concerns.
But zero interest in a Model X, S or 3.
Electric is the future and Tesla has done a lot to jump start it. I suspect those that will truly profit from it are the traditional OEMs who actually know how to build cars.
A good start would be for the "resisters" to finally accept that the PDK is not an automatic transmission. There's no torque converter and the actual transmission is the same seven speed manual used in the traditional manual cars but with a dual clutch system that operates without a clutch pedal. It can be shifted manually with your right hand on the shift lever just like a regular manual. Difference is that you don't have that third pedal and you don't move the gear lever in an H pattern. Just forward and aft. I don't see this as a big deal in return for incomparable performance but a small number of die hards still do. And that number is small (10%) and getting smaller.
It may be a simplification to call a PDK an automatic, but it is ok to prefer a car with a third pedal or a car with 2 pedals only. 3 pedals is simpler, cheaper, and more engaging physically. A Tesla "transmission" is the natural progression of manual to torque converter auto to automated "manual" to driving a rheostat. Next comes 1 pedal then no pedals. We all get to choose where along the continuum we want to be, which can and will change over time. Someday a Porsche with no pedals with instant torque and a track GPS built in will pull out of pit lane and decimate the manuals and PDKs of yesteryear. I'm sure that owner will be proud.
Pros:
* Fast acceleration
* Better for environment
Cons:
* Ugly (especially the interiors on the Model 3) - they will age similar to how interiors from the early/mid 80s aged when everything was LCD "digital"
* Performance is non-repeatable (you can't really push them hard for an extended drive as they overheat)
* Not necessarily much better for the environment depending on actual battery disposal/sourcing/entire supply chain for energy and vehicle/battery production
* In its infancy - you don't get much vs. other cars at same price point - and total cost of ownership is higher (vs. similar cars)
* All the usual "driver passion" issues that are frankly less relevant for sedans and cars intended for commuting. For sports cars, highly relevant and I already don't care to ever get a Nissan GTR for those same types of reasons...
I am not opposed to electrification but the cars on the market are not quite there imho. I am curious about the Taycan to see if it addresses a lot of the concerns.
But zero interest in a Model X, S or 3.
Electric is the future and Tesla has done a lot to jump start it. I suspect those that will truly profit from it are the traditional OEMs who actually know how to build cars.
Electric cars are not better for the environment. The destruction of the earth to mine for lithium and the coal that is burnt to provide for the electricity. It's a scam.
Electric cars are not better for the environment. The destruction of the earth to mine for lithium and the coal that is burnt to provide for the electricity. It's a scam.
Does any one know how many cubic yards of earth have been upended, exposed, eroded, and consumed by the auto industry so far? Cubic acres of Forrest? Barrels of petroleum? Lost lives? Square acres of lost natural environments? Tons of toxic metals ans silt dumped directly or eroded into streams and rivers among other nasties. I am referring just making millions upon millions of these things for over 100 years now. What about disposal of these used things?
Lithium mining sounds bad..... but 100 years of manufacturing these things so far was OK eh?
Yes, Lithium Mining is not clean.....but so is Crude oil. Remember the Gulf of Mexico? Yves
Spills are a little different.
There's the "dirty oil" like tar sands vs punching a hole in the ground and extracting .
Lithium is like dirty oil. Resource heavy to acquire.
Lot's of water needed to mine lithium never mind the limited locations that you can even get it from and then there's the disposal afterwards. And I think fresh water will be the "next crisis" to be taxed.
I too recently drove a Model 3 AWD that ran 0-60 in 3.4seconds, and that car was around 70k. While the torque is impressive and I was nauseated from being thrown back!, the driving dynamics weren't on par with my E90 M3, a very appliance like car similar to a Honda or Toyota.. No question the electric cars can blow away most high end sports cars in 0-60 but Tesla hasnt yet got the driving dynamics nailed like Porsche or BMW. I also think most of us are from an older generation whom grew up on IC engine cars will have a hard time adopting the electric cars unlike the millennials.
did you try tossing it around corners? I saw a model 3 swerve to avoid an object on the freeway and it’s definitely did not look Honda/Toyota like in handling. There’s very little body roll, steering ratio is like a Cayman (720 deg lock to lock). For a performance model 3, Track mode will optimize grip on corner entry and exit, helping you manage oversteer and understeer and even drift. I think it would be tons of fun at the limit. Try oversteering a Camry. AWD is inherently heavier and more numb in the steering though. E90 has fantastic steering feel.
On a recent vacation to Palm Springs my buddy and I did a car swap - he'd just bought a Model S, so one morning on a run to the grocery store to get BBQ supplies he drove my 997 C4S (MT) and I took his Tesla. Within about 5 minutes I thought I was going to throw up from all the regenerative braking. I felt motion sick and unnerved from the eerie quiet of the acceleration.
Once we got to the store my buddy was grinning like an idiot from having ragged my 911, and I was looking pale and headed for a bathroom.
The smooth, silent acceleration is pretty cool in its own way. It feels like a roller coaster ride.
you do have to learn to modulate the throttle properly with all that regen. Model 3 attracts a lot of non-enthusiast buyers who think “wow mashing the throttle is fun!” and they don’t pay attention to how they lift.
Folks.... um.... the internal combustion engine will be dead. So will most of the automobile-related business in the USA and world.
My friend just got a new Tesla (traded in an older model). I don't know the model numbers... but four door sedan with all wheel drive. 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds....... did you just read that? 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds. Unbelievable.... just unbelievable. He put it in "ludicrous mode". Does anyone really know what that kind of full torque feels lilke? Sheesh.
Look, it is not a Porsche sports car ... the interior is still spartan... modern but you would never describe it as opulent... Good looking car... not spectacular, but a nice looking car. The car rode perfectly flat, no swish and was smooooth. Summary? I would never buy one... BUT... when this tech is properly applied to a sports car and my Porsche blows up.. well.... I will probably jump.
Lol this thread. The premise is kind of a troll given the population of this forum: old guys who probably don't need to drive to work anymore, and who would rather own a car with 10-15 year old technology that looks like a 50 year old car instead of the actual 50 year old car, or any of the newer more performant versions. =P
BTW: Tesla roadster? 1.9s 0-60, 600 mi of range? Yeah it's vaporware so far but maybe in the not so distant future?
PS: Tesla is creating lots of American jobs in solar energy, battery manufacturing, and electric car components and assembly, and also sales and service. Jobs are changing, not necessarily going away. Better keep it here than overseas.
It's funny that we think the sports car of a 911 is more engaging than a Tesla Model 3, which is meant to be mass market and has to hit price points and suspension tunings acceptable to most commuters.
Yet IMO the weak point of the 997.2 is the floppy and vague shifter, the stiff and nonlinear clutch pedal, and the laggy throttle. In other words, shifting the 997 is the least fun part of the car. It does best when in gear and accelerating out of a corner. I'm installing the numeric shifter and cables when I get some time to see if it helps, but the throttle is still going to be laggy. I can't do the e36 M3 thing where you throttle modulate between slalom cones and add speed through the slalom, in the 997 I'm always out of phase.
For daily commuting and as a primary car, the model 3 is the perfect car. The smooth acceleration and instant throttle response make it a breeze to wait through stop and go (mostly stop) and to get from stoplight to stoplight. It's a far better experience than any automatic transmission, which is jerky, laggy, and nonlinear in comparison. And feathering the clutch on the 997 while creeping up a hill at 1 mph waiting at the metering lights to get on the highway is gut wrenching.
So... the 997 stays in the garage and comes out only for autocross and exercise. The model 3 takes the abuse of daily driving.
BTW: There is absolutely no fear of taking short trips in an EV or starting it up just to move it a couple of feet. No need to warm up the oil or worry about shutting down the engine before it's hot. Just get in and go.
Why do I have a 997? I don't know, but when it looks at me with those big headlights, my heart melts and I can't bear selling it. I'm trying not to get attached to the model 3, and I'm trying to treat it as a commuting appliance.
Electric cars are not better for the environment. The destruction of the earth to mine for lithium and the coal that is burnt to provide for the electricity. It's a scam.
You contradicted yourself within your own post. Perhaps you should qualify your statements. e.g. if your car is charged up in a country that used hydroelectric, solar and/or wind power it is better for the environment ( excluding cobalt and lithium production).
In countries like the US, electric cars are not good for the environment. Refineries are much cleaner than coal plants.
We've had different EV's for the past six years straight, and will always have one- even if it turned out there was no environmental benefit. They are a hoot around town, practically no maintenance, and never going to a gas station is quite a treat.
I don't believe it, electric cars work now because there are so few on the road. If you believe the future is personal transportation and not mass transit the current technology is a dead-end. Charging is not a problem now but go to your local gas station and observe how many cars fuel up in a short period of time. There is no way the current technology can support 80 million electric cars on the road in the next 20 years. Gasoline is still the best storage medium for personal transportation and till battery storage is comparable we will be using gasoline.
We've had different EV's for the past six years straight, and will always have one- even if it turned out there was no environmental benefit. They are a hoot around town, practically no maintenance, and never going to a gas station is quite a treat.
Not to change the subject, but what do you think of the BMW i3? I have been thinking about one to replace my Mini.
Originally Posted by dgmark
I don't believe it, electric cars work now because there are so few on the road. If you believe the future is personal transportation and not mass transit the current technology is a dead-end. Charging is not a problem now but go to your local gas station and observe how many cars fuel up in a short period of time. There is no way the current technology can support 80 million electric cars on the road in the next 20 years. Gasoline is still the best storage medium for personal transportation and till battery storage is comparable we will be using gasoline.
This common fault of most technology. Things that work great on a limited scale can not deal with the unintended consequences of millions of users.
Anyone who has traveled in Europe or experienced the NYC subway understands how great public transit can be... situational issues aside. In the USA, these system just aren't going to happen given the challenge with eminent domain and our legal system. It is just too expensive to build. The USA took a pro-personal transportation position a long time ago.... this is why Elon is going underground.
1 - Technology will improve, charging time will get down to at least as fast as fueling with gasoline.
2 - There are already 82 million charging stations in the USA... right now... they are just not fully enabled. I suspect the number of gasoline/electric charging stations (Exxon electric/gas stations) will actually drop.. just close up. Why? Do the math. What if everyone charged at home every night. How many fewer cars will need to use the Exxon electric charging station? Those gas/electric stations will start to close except on established, main routes where folks are doing longer-haul drives.
01-04-2019, 11:44 AM
