Service Records versus PPI
12-12-2018, 03:15 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
The thread is 54 pages long so for those who don't have the time or inclination to sort through all of that, the car was in poor auction wholesale condition at best as opposed to the near flawless CPO standards Porsche brags about when describing their CPO process on the Porsche USA website. The buyer of this car went to hell and back fighting this and finally came to some kind of agreement with the dealer. Wasn't made anywhere near whole imo but better than nothing I guess. The disturbing part of this story isn't just how this supposedly premier Porsche dealership CPO'd a car that was nowhere near meeting CPO standards but how they fought tooth and nail after being presented with evidence that they had basically defrauded this buyer and PCNA refused to intervene to make things right.
So it looks like Porsche dealerships can CPO cars at their discretion no matter what PCNA says about the specifics and standards of it. And they can do it with no backlash from PCNA if they stray from the standards specified. Makes you wonder what the CPO is worth. I would definitely do a PPI on a CPO car rather than assuming that since it's CPO, it must be perfect.
12-12-2018, 11:39 AM
#17
I am a bad example. I bought a 997.1 C2 sight unseen, no PPI, no service records. Since I could not do the inspection myself, any ppi is worthless to me so I might as well rolled the dice. Done, wonderful car,
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maschinetheist (08-31-2020)
12-12-2018, 11:50 AM
#18
Instructor
Not always. Porsche Of Beverly Hills (largest volume Porsche dealership in the US last I heard) sold a CPO 2011 997 GTS that turned out to be a far distance from meeting the strict CPO standards the Porsche brags about. Here's the thread that tells the whole story: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-poor-car.html
The thread is 54 pages long so for those who don't have the time or inclination to sort through all of that, the car was in poor auction wholesale condition at best as opposed to the near flawless CPO standards Porsche brags about when describing their CPO process on the Porsche USA website. The buyer of this car went to hell and back fighting this and finally came to some kind of agreement with the dealer. Wasn't made anywhere near whole imo but better than nothing I guess. The disturbing part of this story isn't just how this supposedly premier Porsche dealership CPO'd a car that was nowhere near meeting CPO standards but how they fought tooth and nail after being presented with evidence that they had basically defrauded this buyer and PCNA refused to intervene to make things right.
So it looks like Porsche dealerships can CPO cars at their discretion no matter what PCNA says about the specifics and standards of it. And they can do it with no backlash from PCNA if they stray from the standards specified. Makes you wonder what the CPO is worth. I would definitely do a PPI on a CPO car rather than assuming that since it's CPO, it must be perfect.
The thread is 54 pages long so for those who don't have the time or inclination to sort through all of that, the car was in poor auction wholesale condition at best as opposed to the near flawless CPO standards Porsche brags about when describing their CPO process on the Porsche USA website. The buyer of this car went to hell and back fighting this and finally came to some kind of agreement with the dealer. Wasn't made anywhere near whole imo but better than nothing I guess. The disturbing part of this story isn't just how this supposedly premier Porsche dealership CPO'd a car that was nowhere near meeting CPO standards but how they fought tooth and nail after being presented with evidence that they had basically defrauded this buyer and PCNA refused to intervene to make things right.
So it looks like Porsche dealerships can CPO cars at their discretion no matter what PCNA says about the specifics and standards of it. And they can do it with no backlash from PCNA if they stray from the standards specified. Makes you wonder what the CPO is worth. I would definitely do a PPI on a CPO car rather than assuming that since it's CPO, it must be perfect.
Interesting story but you're picking a needle out of a haystack. There must be thousands of more than happy CPO customers .
12-12-2018, 01:56 PM
#19
If the choice really is one over the other (which, of course, it isn't because PPIs are easy to get), then you'd be crazy to take a single inspection by one tech over a complete service history.
12-12-2018, 02:09 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Keep in mind, PPIs are fairly worthless unless the tech is familiar with 997s. I had my GT3 inspected by a shop that specialized in German cars, though did not necessarily specialize in 997s, and they missed a plethora of things (both good and bad).
12-12-2018, 03:48 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
So buying a new Toyota seems like the way to go
12-12-2018, 08:20 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Best to be naive and drinking before pulling the trigger. Did that buying Z3 on eBay 15 years ago and was blast for almost no cost after 5 yrs. 911 I had more restraint but not purist for perfection with all records/ppi, just cpo with pics and what vin research I could find. Has turned out fantastic. Don't overthink it, apply sense and make good decision. Bad experiences get lots of web postings. Happy ones rarely post.
Don't buy Toyota. I did. Wife and kids stuck for 288,000 miles before I could dump it on some sucker who prob got another 100k with only normal service.
Don't buy Toyota. I did. Wife and kids stuck for 288,000 miles before I could dump it on some sucker who prob got another 100k with only normal service.
12-13-2018, 03:03 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
You missed my point. Of course there are far more happy CPO buyers out there than unhappy ones. What I was trying to say was that if the premier Porsche dealer in the US misrepresents a CPO car in the fashion described in the thread I attached, refuses to admit to it, refuses to fix what was wrong or take the car back with no repercussions from PCNA, then I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the car has been CPO'd, it must be perfect and no PPI is needed. Clearly there's no oversight by PCNA as to how the dealerships go about the CPO process. I can see how there will be mistakes made here and there but this went far beyond that and yet neither the dealership or PCNA had the integrity to own up to it. That's all.
12-13-2018, 11:06 AM
#27
Porsche switched to the unserviceable larger (I thought double-row but I stand corrected) bearings around February of '05. If you search this topic on Google, you'll find that there's an engine number (M96) that people report being the turnaround point, all engines with lower numbers have the smaller single-row, all with higher have the larger. The build date for the change over was somewhere around February, but the engine number is a more accurate determinant. There are some who think that even that can be inaccurate, but it's the best thing to go on short of pulling the trans. The car I bought was about 100 units lower than the turnaround number, and it did indeed have a smaller single-row IMS (the upgrade with new clutch cost me about $3K). This is only true for the 3.6 engines, I believe all 3.8s have the larger IMS.
I think it's well documented that over 95% (or thereabouts) of all the larger baring engines have had no problems. However, I think it's likely that this number will rise as the mileage piles up on these cars. Of course, if you get 150,000 miles on your engine and then the bearing fails, it's not a huge loss as you were due for a rebuild anyway. My feeling is that I'd rather have some control over this, according to the company, the LN ceramic bearings report a failure rate of zero so far. But, as I said, I looked for my car for a year. Most of the 997s on the market are dealer cars, and many dealers won't even bother looking up the engine number for you. And then you go back to the whole service records thing which was the original topic of this thread - most dealer cars won't have any service records. At the end of the day, you've just got to figure out what you can live with and move on.
I think it's well documented that over 95% (or thereabouts) of all the larger baring engines have had no problems. However, I think it's likely that this number will rise as the mileage piles up on these cars. Of course, if you get 150,000 miles on your engine and then the bearing fails, it's not a huge loss as you were due for a rebuild anyway. My feeling is that I'd rather have some control over this, according to the company, the LN ceramic bearings report a failure rate of zero so far. But, as I said, I looked for my car for a year. Most of the 997s on the market are dealer cars, and many dealers won't even bother looking up the engine number for you. And then you go back to the whole service records thing which was the original topic of this thread - most dealer cars won't have any service records. At the end of the day, you've just got to figure out what you can live with and move on.
12-13-2018, 12:00 PM
#28
Instructor
You missed my point. Of course there are far more happy CPO buyers out there than unhappy ones. What I was trying to say was that if the premier Porsche dealer in the US misrepresents a CPO car in the fashion described in the thread I attached, refuses to admit to it, refuses to fix what was wrong or take the car back with no repercussions from PCNA, then I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the car has been CPO'd, it must be perfect and no PPI is needed. Clearly there's no oversight by PCNA as to how the dealerships go about the CPO process. I can see how there will be mistakes made here and there but this went far beyond that and yet neither the dealership or PCNA had the integrity to own up to it. That's all.
12-13-2018, 12:23 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Touting a CPO as foolproof is more like foolhardy! 
New cars are covered by consumer protection laws in the USA, differently than CPO.. so there isn't a direct comparison there. Getting a PPI is the smart route to take when possible.
New cars are covered by consumer protection laws in the USA, differently than CPO.. so there isn't a direct comparison there. Getting a PPI is the smart route to take when possible.
12-13-2018, 11:45 PM
#30
Instructor
Again, no one touted CPO as foolproof! It's the next best thing to buying new, unless anyone can show consistent evidence that this is gibberish then please present your point.
Full service history; showing oil changes, regular maintenance: ok - Can easily miss or not include serious issues/repairs.
PPI; Get it done by a reputable, 997 experienced shop as originally stated - easily recommended by numerous RL members
CPO; has the very very occasional headache, usually corrected if you moan enough - then fixed under CPO warranty.
My advice to OP is; buy CPO, then if not get a thorough PPI (if no service history) and then finally buy blind with a book full of stamps.
Do CPO peeps generally get a third party PPI done too?