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Project Dora: A 997 version of the 911 R!

Old 11-06-2018, 07:36 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Hammerman501 View Post

I have seen the future and it is turbocharged. Personally, I think the M97 engine will be the epitome of atmospheric non-GT3 flat six Porsche engines. That rules out a lot of amazing engines- acknowledged. But that is why I decided to go with these mods at about 75,000 miles. We have a good baseline of 300 whp for Dora. Let’s see what TPC can measure after everything is complete and apply 15%- can we agree on that?- for the conversion from whp to bhp and see where we are.

Every generation of Porsche engine has had it's short comings and short cuts taken in order to mass produce and be a sporty engine for the masses. GT3 engines not excluded. I recently read about 9A1 engine Gt3's that are used frequently at the Nurburgring as part of a rent and drive company. Several of the 9A1 GT3's had multiple engine changes under warranty. One in particular Gt3 had over a dozen engine changes under warrantly with less than 100k miles.

I can understand your enthusiasm for the M97 engine, because I have it too. I absolutely love the way this engine sounds on full boil and it has a great character in the way it delivers it's power and screams to redline. With the right intake and exhaust the sound can run chills up your spine. I for one have driven over 300,000 miles in M96/M97 engined Porsches. Never had an issue. Super easy to work on, maintain, and for what it's worth, it's an old enough design that ALL the flaws can be addressed, upgraded and made into a really great robust engine. That is why I am so looking forward to see how your build comes out. You are taking an engine that lot's of Porsche enthusiast really enjoy and love, in spite of it's known shortcomings, and taking it to a superior version of itself. So, kudo's to you and it looks like you are doing it right using lots of oem/x51 parts. As much as I love the M97 engine in stock form, I may not call it the "epitome" just yet, or ever, but I sure as heck would not call it a low point in Porsche engine history. Although with your mods and engine rebuild, it's gonna be damn impressive and the envy of a lot of us "M97 stockers"

ps. since discussing longevity... you did not mention your IMS solution specifically, or maybe I missed it. Any further info on internals would be great to hear.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by latonnelier View Post
This looks like a great build. BTW, what is the rear bumper that's on the car now? That's something like what I have been thinking about for my '06 C2S
I really appreciate going with no wing--I'm not against them per se, just seems that for what your doing the bare rear end is a great choice.
G
I think it will fit your car too. Let me know if you are interested in buying it. Dora is going to have the center muffler/exhaust and a new bumper so this one is available.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by qikqbn View Post
ps. since discussing longevity... you did not mention your IMS solution specifically, or maybe I missed it. Any further info on internals would be great to hear.
Dora’s makeover will include LN IMS and oil pump drive shaft replacements along with a competition clutch. No LSD. My understanding is that the IMS failures that occurred were in very low mileage cars that were made early in the production run. Dora is early but she has been driven... about 75k miles.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammerman501 View Post

I think it will fit your car too. Let me know if you are interested in buying it. Dora is going to have the center muffler/exhaust and a new bumper so this one is available.
I'm interested, when you get some time lets talk about it.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:26 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by qikqbn View Post
Every generation of Porsche engine has had it's short comings and short cuts taken in order to mass produce and be a sporty engine for the masses. GT3 engines not excluded. I recently read about 9A1 engine Gt3's that are used frequently at the Nurburgring as part of a rent and drive company. Several of the 9A1 GT3's had multiple engine changes under warranty. One in particular Gt3 had over a dozen engine changes under warrantly with less than 100k miles.

I can understand your enthusiasm for the M97 engine, because I have it too. I absolutely love the way this engine sounds on full boil and it has a great character in the way it delivers it's power and screams to redline. With the right intake and exhaust the sound can run chills up your spine. I for one have driven over 300,000 miles in M96/M97 engined Porsches. Never had an issue. Super easy to work on, maintain, and for what it's worth, it's an old enough design that ALL the flaws can be addressed, upgraded and made into a really great robust engine. That is why I am so looking forward to see how your build comes out. You are taking an engine that lot's of Porsche enthusiast really enjoy and love, in spite of it's known shortcomings, and taking it to a superior version of itself. So, kudo's to you and it looks like you are doing it right using lots of oem/x51 parts. As much as I love the M97 engine in stock form, I may not call it the "epitome" just yet, or ever, but I sure as heck would not call it a low point in Porsche engine history. Although with your mods and engine rebuild, it's gonna be damn impressive and the envy of a lot of us "M97 stockers"

ps. since discussing longevity... you did not mention your IMS solution specifically, or maybe I missed it. Any further info on internals would be great to hear.
Ya ALL the flaws can be addressed if you CHANGE THE ENGINE BLOCK. This is not like having to do a top end on a 993 or even upgrading an IMS, this is replacing the bloody block (or more technically having it relined). I guess i cant argue with the M97 fanboys but i just dont get it - pls point me in the direction of a modern Porsche engine with more known (and potentially catastrophic) flaws.

I have the gundo on mine combined with AWE cats and x51 headers and its the best sounding car i have ever had (or heard anywhere) and its pushing or maybe over 400HP. However i just cant even remotely defend this engine. You shouldnt have to address all the flaws that Porsche produced to end up with a robust engine. You should have this from the start.

Anyways, this is no slag on what the OP is doing. Its nice to have the time and money to undertake this voluntarily and see what you can end up with. I know you will really enjoy the car once it is all done
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:18 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by vern1 View Post
Ya ALL the flaws can be addressed if you CHANGE THE ENGINE BLOCK. This is not like having to do a top end on a 993 or even upgrading an IMS, this is replacing the bloody block (or more technically having it relined). I guess i cant argue with the M97 fanboys but i just dont get it - pls point me in the direction of a modern Porsche engine with more known (and potentially catastrophic) flaws.

I have the gundo on mine combined with AWE cats and x51 headers and its the best sounding car i have ever had (or heard anywhere) and its pushing or maybe over 400HP. However i just cant even remotely defend this engine. You shouldnt have to address all the flaws that Porsche produced to end up with a robust engine. You should have this from the start.

Anyways, this is no slag on what the OP is doing. Its nice to have the time and money to undertake this voluntarily and see what you can end up with. I know you will really enjoy the car once it is all done
Vern1, I am sorry you had a fatal flaw with your 997.1. That really sucks and I hope that does not happen to any of us. In spite of that terrible situation, I must say I am envious of your 4.0 conversion and applaud you for taking on that labor of love. You mention you don't get the M97 "fanboys". I don't consider myself that necessarily, but I will defend a car that I have found has given me almost a decade of excitement and ownership pride. I guess at the same time I can say, I don't get all the M97 hate from a handful of members here who are also long term porsche owners. Many of us spent a lot of money purchasing our cars new or gently used. We as Porsche enthusiast understand we drive special cars and they can be expensive if something wrong happens. As a Porsche enthusiast and car guy through and through I also understand from being around cars and personally working on cars my whole life that no car is perfect or guaranteed to last a life time. There are NO guarantees in this life, period. I am not talking just about cars when I say that either. Yet when I meet or talk with long term enthusiast and car guys they seem to understand that some cars are a labor of love and others last longer than expected. Having known many owners of different generations I am not upset when I hear that some one is rebuilding an engine. I think it's kind of cool when they take on a project like that! I don't just call their labor of love a piece of junk just because their car had a flaw or even a catastrophic one. Even with rumors of high IMS/bore scoring, or whatever type failure get's pinned on our cars, with estimates floating around, it's still 10% or less. So 90% of 997.1 M97 engines are still out their kicking *** 10-13 years later. I have talked to so many air-cooled owners who have restored or rebuilt their cars in so many ways. Spending 25k , or even 30k-40k to bring a car back to life and it is not a big deal or unexpected to hear in the porsche community. Yet when they spend that kind of money on an aircooled, they are some kind of hero. But when a 997.1 is brought back to life... that guy is some how a fool for trusting in or enjoying the 997.1 power plant while it lasted. I don't get it. Some people just have bad luck. Are M97 haters going on to the 9A1 GT3 forums and calling them out because of all the engine replacements they have to get done. Porsche has offered the longest running warranty to 9A1 Gt3 owners, and it's not because their engines are reliable, it's because their engines will likely need more than one engine replacement during the lifetime of the car. Where is the same hate for that engine?? Yes I understand it's under extended life long warranty, but does that make it a good reliable engine?? Does that engine get the "M97 standard of scrutiny"? . At the end of the day I understand people, and I understand the love for Porsche and the different generations/models. I like to be a part of the enthusiasm and love for these cars. I am just not into bashing an entire generation of 911 because it maybe has a 10% chance, which in reality is probably much less, of having an expensive failure. Let's not forget that many 997.1's have been around 13 years now and driven hard with 100k plus miles. Why not give them some love like this OP and rebuild that engine if you can afford it. I enjoy reading about it and I know I will do it when the time comes.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:46 PM
  #67  
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very cool build!
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:50 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by qikqbn View Post
Vern1, I am sorry you had a fatal flaw with your 997.1. That really sucks and I hope that does not happen to any of us. In spite of that terrible situation, I must say I am envious of your 4.0 conversion and applaud you for taking on that labor of love. You mention you don't get the M97 "fanboys". I don't consider myself that necessarily, but I will defend a car that I have found has given me almost a decade of excitement and ownership pride. I guess at the same time I can say, I don't get all the M97 hate from a handful of members here who are also long term porsche owners. Many of us spent a lot of money purchasing our cars new or gently used. We as Porsche enthusiast understand we drive special cars and they can be expensive if something wrong happens. As a Porsche enthusiast and car guy through and through I also understand from being around cars and personally working on cars my whole life that no car is perfect or guaranteed to last a life time. There are NO guarantees in this life, period. I am not talking just about cars when I say that either. Yet when I meet or talk with long term enthusiast and car guys they seem to understand that some cars are a labor of love and others last longer than expected. Having known many owners of different generations I am not upset when I hear that some one is rebuilding an engine. I think it's kind of cool when they take on a project like that! I don't just call their labor of love a piece of junk just because their car had a flaw or even a catastrophic one. Even with rumors of high IMS/bore scoring, or whatever type failure get's pinned on our cars, with estimates floating around, it's still 10% or less. So 90% of 997.1 M97 engines are still out their kicking *** 10-13 years later. I have talked to so many air-cooled owners who have restored or rebuilt their cars in so many ways. Spending 25k , or even 30k-40k to bring a car back to life and it is not a big deal or unexpected to hear in the porsche community. Yet when they spend that kind of money on an aircooled, they are some kind of hero. But when a 997.1 is brought back to life... that guy is some how a fool for trusting in or enjoying the 997.1 power plant while it lasted. I don't get it. Some people just have bad luck. Are M97 haters going on to the 9A1 GT3 forums and calling them out because of all the engine replacements they have to get done. Porsche has offered the longest running warranty to 9A1 Gt3 owners, and it's not because their engines are reliable, it's because their engines will likely need more than one engine replacement during the lifetime of the car. Where is the same hate for that engine?? Yes I understand it's under extended life long warranty, but does that make it a good reliable engine?? Does that engine get the "M97 standard of scrutiny"? . At the end of the day I understand people, and I understand the love for Porsche and the different generations/models. I like to be a part of the enthusiasm and love for these cars. I am just not into bashing an entire generation of 911 because it maybe has a 10% chance, which in reality is probably much less, of having an expensive failure. Let's not forget that many 997.1's have been around 13 years now and driven hard with 100k plus miles. Why not give them some love like this OP and rebuild that engine if you can afford it. I enjoy reading about it and I know I will do it when the time comes.
Excellent post, not necessarily directed at anyone, just in general. Is the 9A1 a better motor - it sure seems to be. Do I love my 2 997.1 cars that are under my care, you bet I do.

I remember when the 914 was (and probably still is) ostracized by the rest of the Porsche community as the un-Porsche, VW with bodykit, or "poor mans' Porsche", but it had a lot of Porsche tech built into it (torsion bar front suspension, boxer configuration motor, racing shift pattern, etc) and for me, it was the car that started my appreciation for the marque and was priced at an entry point that allowed me to get in and start learning about cars, handling, tuning, modding, etc. I've rebuilt that motor twice in the 33 years I've owned it and without the 914, I wouldn't have the other Porsches I do today. At current prices of the 997.1, it's getting close to being the same type of entry to the marque the 914 was for me, and it's probably a more pure version of what a Porsche is than the 914. Are the old water cooled Porsches less Porsche-esque also since versions of them are no longer made - the 928, the 944, etc. Porsche has switched to all water cooled - does that make the older 911s with air-cooling no longer good cars because the cooling system technology has changed - I don't think so and by the prices at which they change hands, neither does anyone else.

This is a place where Porsche enthusiasts get together to appreciate each others cars, help the DIYers resolve issues that others have already experienced and fixed, share changes or improvements that have been done, etc and it doesn't really matter what generation of 997 or what model of Porsche is used to "join the club" - everyone has bought what they bought for a reason and is enjoying being a Porsche owner and how the car makes them feel when driving. That's the commonality here and the there really doesn't need to be any bad-mouthing of others models, options, generations etc.

Me personally, I like to tinker and modify my cars, but I do it because that's what I like - visually, performance-wise, etc. That doesn't make them better than someone else's who appreciates keeping theirs stock and driving it the way Porsche designed it - it just makes them different. NB vs WB, MT vs PDK vs Tip, RWD vs AWD, coupe vs cab vs targe, etc none of it is really better or worse, just different. Porsche offers all these different options so everyone can find the 997 that perfectly suits them. It wouldn't be nearly as entertaining here if there were about 5 997s to choose from and we all had essentially the same car, would it?

Anyway, I think we've cluttered up this 997.R build thread enough with comments that don't really apply to what the OP and TPC are trying to accomplish. What we don't want is for members and sponsors to decide not to start threads like this because of all the junk that gets injected into them, detracting from the overall theme and enjoyment of the topic.

I'll step down now - so we can get back to the topic at hand.

Thanks.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:33 AM
  #69  
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OK you 2 are way too philosophic for me

And qikqbn you are just not getting what i am saying.

If was hating on the car then i would have sold it. But i cant because it was a labour of love and i love driving it and i have poured many many hours (and substantial $$$) in to it

The issue i have is when guys come on and use words like "epitome" to describe this engine. Its just not no matter how many times guys throw out the same rationalizations that you do. A 10% (or whatever) chance of catastrophic failure is not acceptable no matter how great the cars perform and i dont understand why guys defend Porsche for this. Other engines have issues but none blow up better than the m97

I am glad you have had 10 years of trouble free service and enjoyment; others havent and theres nothing wrong with pointing out these shortcoming as i dont think this does any newbie any favours

The facts are the facts when it comes to these engines. You can enjoy the hell out of the car and the engine (as i do as well) but i cant in good conscience defend it to anyone

Cheers
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:02 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by vern1 View Post
OK you 2 are way too philosophic for me

And qikqbn you are just not getting what i am saying.

If was hating on the car then i would have sold it. But i cant because it was a labour of love and i love driving it and i have poured many many hours (and substantial $$$) in to it

The issue i have is when guys come on and use words like "epitome" to describe this engine. Its just not no matter how many times guys throw out the same rationalizations that you do. A 10% (or whatever) chance of catastrophic failure is not acceptable no matter how great the cars perform and i dont understand why guys defend Porsche for this. Other engines have issues but none blow up better than the m97

I am glad you have had 10 years of trouble free service and enjoyment; others havent and theres nothing wrong with pointing out these shortcoming as i dont think this does any newbie any favours

The facts are the facts when it comes to these engines. You can enjoy the hell out of the car and the engine (as i do as well) but i cant in good conscience defend it to anyone

Cheers
I don't disagree with this and believe the M97 has shortcomings. I don't defend it, and I like you, will rebuild mine with the necessary updates if it turns out to be one of the 10% or so that fail. In fact with the forced induction stresses on mine, I unfortunately expect my odds are better (read: worse) for failure than the normal 10%, but there's not another car I'd rather drive around until failure may occur..

There are also other engines that do blow up better - unfortunately, some of them are in other Porsches. The 958 Cayenne & Panamera 8 cylinder engines produced in 2011 and early 2012 had aluminum variocam bolts where the heads would snap off, causing a loss of timing, and taking out the motor. Initially, it was a workshop campaign (look into WC22) to repair or replace failed motors that had the bad bolts, but through enough owners reporting the failures to the NHTSA, it became a full-blown recall. NHTSA became involved, because when the motor failed and shut down, there was no steering or braking ability. That meant new motors to those that had the failure, and if it hadn't failed yet, new bolts installed at no cost. For those that had the failure before the update kits were readily available, Porsche supplied service loaner vehicles (usually Macans) to the owners and some had the loaners for months. At the height of the reporting, I was seeing 1-2 new failures a week and personally have a friend in town with a Panamera Turbo that had the failure and destroyed the motor.

Because I'm a Porsche guy, I'm more familiar with the Porsche shortcomings than those of other marques, but am aware of a few just from exposure - like BMW (carbon buildup issues on the DFI motors), Range Rovers electrical problems, etc, but I think every motor has it's issues (though it seems there aren't many with the 9A1). The 08 957 V8 Cayennes (Ss, GTSs, & Turbos) are seeing a bore scoring issue due to a cylinder honing process that was used in 08, but changed for the 09 model year. Heck even the beloved Mezger motor in the 997.1 GT cars and Turbos has a coolant pipe issue where if they separate will spray slippery coolant all over the rear tires causing a certain loss of vehicle control. Thank goodness for guys like Jake Raby at FSI and Charles @ LN Engineering who study these motors to determine the failure modes, and then engineer and test fixes for them, so that the same flawed parts don't have to go back into the rebuilt motor, as that's the true definition of insanity - doing the exact same thing and expecting a different result.

If the Porsche vehicles weren't so darn exciting and enjoyable to drive, we'd all probably be running around in vanilla Toyotas - no thanks.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:14 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
I don't disagree with this and believe the M97 has shortcomings. I don't defend it, and I like you, will rebuild mine with the necessary updates if it turns out to be one of the 10% or so that fail. In fact with the forced induction stresses on mine, I unfortunately expect my odds are better (read: worse) for failure than the normal 10%, but there's not another car I'd rather drive around until failure may occur..

There are also other engines that do blow up better - unfortunately, some of them are in other Porsches. The 958 Cayenne & Panamera 8 cylinder engines produced in 2011 and early 2012 had aluminum variocam bolts where the heads would snap off, causing a loss of timing, and taking out the motor. Initially, it was a workshop campaign (look into WC22) to repair or replace failed motors that had the bad bolts, but through enough owners reporting the failures to the NHTSA, it became a full-blown recall. NHTSA became involved, because when the motor failed and shut down, there was no steering or braking ability. That meant new motors to those that had the failure, and if it hadn't failed yet, new bolts installed at no cost. For those that had the failure before the update kits were readily available, Porsche supplied service loaner vehicles (usually Macans) to the owners and some had the loaners for months. At the height of the reporting, I was seeing 1-2 new failures a week and personally have a friend in town with a Panamera Turbo that had the failure and destroyed the motor.

Because I'm a Porsche guy, I'm more familiar with the Porsche shortcomings than those of other marques, but am aware of a few just from exposure - like BMW (carbon buildup issues on the DFI motors), Range Rovers electrical problems, etc, but I think every motor has it's issues (though it seems there aren't many with the 9A1). The 08 957 V8 Cayennes (Ss, GTSs, & Turbos) are seeing a bore scoring issue due to a cylinder honing process that was used in 08, but changed for the 09 model year. Heck even the beloved Mezger motor in the 997.1 GT cars and Turbos has a coolant pipe issue where if they separate will spray slippery coolant all over the rear tires causing a certain loss of vehicle control. Thank goodness for guys like Jake Raby at FSI and Charles @ LN Engineering who study these motors to determine the failure modes, and then engineer and test fixes for them, so that the same flawed parts don't have to go back into the rebuilt motor, as that's the true definition of insanity - doing the exact same thing and expecting a different result.

If the Porsche vehicles weren't so darn exciting and enjoyable to drive, we'd all probably be running around in vanilla Toyotas - no thanks.
Thanks for the comments and i agree that, as i also stated above, i love the car and would have sold it or not bothered at all to do the rebuild if i didnt enjoy driving it so much

I started a new thread to see what other say on this topic

OP apologies for messing up your thread and i look forward to seeing how it turns out

Cheers
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:20 PM
  #72  
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Hey Guys,
What is your expected ETA on the block from LN? I know its the rate limiting step here, but I am interested in hearing about the process (including turn-around-times) -- any new developments??
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Old 11-15-2018, 06:00 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Hammerman501 View Post

I think it will fit your car too. Let me know if you are interested in buying it. Dora is going to have the center muffler/exhaust and a new bumper so this one is available.
Darn...someone beat me to it. LOL. I don't think it would fit my car anyway (C4S)
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:54 AM
  #74  
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How much for the bumper? We are talking about the gt3 style with quad tips?
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:52 PM
  #75  
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This is going to sound weird but I am so glad the M96 and M97s have major issues. If they didn't have major issues, and the aftermarket didn't have fixes for them, I wouldn't own one. I prefer the 997.1 over the 997.2 for this reason.

Anyway, seems like an interesting project! This build is local, too! Hope one day I can see it after it's completed.

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