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I recently got 2009 (built in 2008) 997.2 with PDK from the Porsche dealer in Canada. I asked them to do PDK service and looks like they screwed up (not having enough experience dealing with PDK) using the wrong oil in the clutch part of PDK. I haven't driven the car yet and I wrote email to ZF today (quote):
'Because it is 12 years old now I asked them to change PDK fluids before the car was delivered to me. Instead of using Pentosin Gear Oil FFL 3 in the clutch part of PDK they used the same oil which is supposed to be used in the gear box part of PDK - Mobilube PTX Formula A (SAE 75W-90) GL 4.5
saying that the same oil can be used. Reading the manual of the car and doing my research I acknowledged that it should be different. Also, they didn't change the oil pan saying it was not necessary.
My question is: what should be done in this situation? Is it safe to use the car for the next 6years or the oil in the clutch part has to be immediately flushed and replaced with Pentosin? Can the use of transmission oil in the clutch part of PDK cause any damage?'
I wasn't charged for this service (was part of the deal). Please see attached work order. Also the Porsche dealer stated in email sent to me: 'our service department also noted that the transmission oil and clutch oil are the same oil in the same system. It was replaced'
Any ideas, dear members, before they answer?
Would appreciate an opinion from Porsche Indy familiar with this issue.
Also the Porsche dealer stated in email sent to me: 'our service department also noted that the transmission oil and clutch oil are the same oil in the same system. It was replaced'
Absolute nonsense. The PDK has two entirely sperate chambers and these two fluids never mix. Do not drive the car with transmission gear oil in the PDK clutch chamber at all, the two fluids have different functions, viscosities, and make-ups. The gear oil is primarily a thicker lubricant whereas the clutch fluid is primarily a hydraulic fluid. Not only that, the PDK uses a wet clutch and the and the clutch internals are immersed and cooled by the clutch fluid. The wrong fluid can contaminate the clutch and shorten it's lifespan. Porsche will not sell you a replacement clutch and will insist you buy a replacement transmission.
The dealership screwed up big time here and you need to raise holy hell. The clutch compartment needs to be drained immediately and flushed multiple times with the correct FFL3 clutch fluid (and it isn't cheap). In addition, the dealership needs to provide a written warranty regarding premature clutch failure or other PDK internal failures.
If the dealership doesn't immediately offer to do this you need to be prepared to go nuclear. This was a huge screw up. Either they know it and are lying or they are incompetent. You may want to insist they pay for the work to be done at a different competent shop unless they can demonstrate they know what they are doing.
I can't help but think that is a catastrophe in the making. Like mixing oil and trans fluid. How would you ever get it all out and not wonder if there was damage?
I can't help but think that is a catastrophe in the making. Like mixing oil and trans fluid. How would you ever get it all out and not wonder if there was damage?
I think your are overreacting. The car wasn't driven and flush is possible, it is not really mixing it. It is all gear oil. Different type but still oil. It is not like you use diesel instead of gas on your car and drive like that.
PS: I would appreciate advice from people who are fixing Porsches for living. Thanks.
I think your are overreacting. The car wasn't driven and flush is possible, it is not really mixing it. It is all gear oil. Different type but still oil. It is not like you use diesel instead of gas on your car and drive like that.
PS: I would appreciate advice from people who are fixing Porsches for living. Thanks.
I'm sorry, I mistook this for a public forum. I missed the part about not being driven, so it's still sitting on the lift at Porsche? Engine never started? BTW, it's people that work on Porsches for a living did this in the first place. It's all just gear oil mixed together right, what's the big deal? It's not like it's 2 completely different fluids mixed on the side with all the electronics or anything.
When I did the front diff and AWD controller they put in the same fluid and I drove like that for a while before I figured it out. They swapped out the fluid and I have had no issues. Why do I bring this up? I think the AWD controller is a clutch type system and it takes 80w90 fluid. So maybe the FFL3 fluid is also some type of gear oil.
I would have them flush it several times. To fill it the first time they had to circulate the fluid (if they did it correctly) so you won't be able to get it all out on one flush.
I think your are overreacting. The car wasn't driven and flush is possible, it is not really mixing it. It is all gear oil. Different type but still oil. It is not like you use diesel instead of gas on your car and drive like that.
PS: I would appreciate advice from people who are fixing Porsches for living. Thanks.
Personally, at this point I'd be debating walking away from this car.
The PDK is finicky about service at best.
There are some on this Forum that have had PDK failures shortly after service ...
Some dealers balk at servicing PDKs because they don't know what they are doing. Other dealers quote inaccurate service intervals. I've queried various dealers before allowing my PDK to be serviced. Answers to my questions were inconsistent and many were incorrect. Knowledge from a dealer is not a guarantee.
For instance, in your case ...
The oil pan should have been changed.
The oils are different.
Possible consequences ...
The drain plug could create metallurgical complications. A known condition for 2009 and some early 2010 models. The only fix for this is a new pan and plug.
The wet clutches are sensitive. They could be damaged.
Essential valves and pumps could be damaged.
Resistance to fluid flow could cause slow shifting resulting in CELs and emergency run conditions.
And don't lose sight that the transmission is expensive.
There is a lot of knowledge with very capable people on this Forum. At the same time any situation can be viewed in multiple ways. Filter the responses as you will. I, personally, would not be comfortable driving this car and that comes from my experience with my 2010 C4S PDK with over 140K miles. But the choice is yours to make.
Just an update also. I hope I edited this right. This is not the gear oil fill. It's on the other side of the transmission
The more I look at these things the more confused I become!!!!!
I'm fortunate to have a fantastic Indie here in the North Bay (San Francisco) area for the PDK service. I took my notes in but they didn't need them.
The 120K service cost me less than the dealers charged for materials alone. It turns out there is a service kit that local dealers were apparently unaware of. This kit reduces expenses significantly. I only found out when I returned to the Indie the next day to correct their invoice and pay them the extra for what I assumed was a billing mistake.
I'm sorry, I mistook this for a public forum. I missed the part about not being driven, so it's still sitting on the lift at Porsche? Engine never started? BTW, it's people that work on Porsches for a living did this in the first place. It's all just gear oil mixed together right, what's the big deal? It's not like it's 2 completely different fluids mixed on the side with all the electronics or anything.
Good luck.
If they were following the book then they would have started the car on the lift and cycled through the gears (wheels turning) to ensure the clutch fluid fully distributed. This is done to ensure the level is properly filled and their aren't air pockets. So yes, the new fluid should have been fully pumped through all portions of the PDK clutch compartment and didn't just sit in the pan. This is the PIWIS standard procedure and they should have followed it, but who knows at this point.
Agree with you that it's a public forum and the comment you get are the comments you get.
Here's an episode of Hoovie's Garage from a few months back where his mechanic (Dave Lang - The Car Wizard) made the same mistake with Hoovie's Mercedes SLS AMG. It also has a DSG transmission with a very similar two chamber setup (and supposedly can't be repaired but must be replaced for $30k). Long story short they flushed it multiple times and Car Wizard committed to replacing the transmission if problems showed up down the road. No issues so far that he's reported.
10-08-2018, 10:05 AM
