sandwedge

Exactly. I'm about to get my rear ended GTS back any day now. Fixed by the best body shop in the area. Damage was limited to what required a new rear bumper, a new Sharkwerks kit and a respray of the front bumper because of a small scratch that just barely got through the clear bra. A clear bra that was 6 years old and looked terrible. I got a recent quote of close to $900 for removal and replacement of it before I got rear ended and now I'm getting it for free as part of the whole repair job. They also removed two small dents (paintless) at no charge. Bottom line is that I'll have a better car when I get it back than I did before the accident. But as you said, a lot of buyers will still use this (if it shows up on carfax.....you never know) to beat me up on the price no matter how perfectly it was repaired and how minor the damage.They're just not the ones who will buy my car. Simple as that.

groovzilla

IMHO and experience in 32 years of buying/selling my cars, any seller who doesn't adjust selling price due to an accident/etc will have a much harder time selling. Porsche buyers expect a deduction for accident history no matter how well the damage was repaired/repainted.
Any owner who doesn't understand this will no doubt come down to earth when the time comes to sell.

Personally, a few cars I have purchased over the years have had accident history and a 10-12% reduction in market value/sale price is just about right.

DesmoSD

Why do you say that? Any big city shouldn't have any impact on trying to work out a deal. Building a report and trust with the sales guy can really help the buying experience. Unfortunately, there are more greedy salesmen then nice, friend and honest salesmen.

Since our cars are a niche, even a minor rear or front fender bender can equate to a lot of damage then a regular FR coupe/roadster. When shopping for a car, I like to treat every accident that's reported as a potential deal breaker even if it was well documented.

Para82

You can do that if it makes you happy, I would just buy one without an accident and skip that step.

sandwedge

I think that's way to broad of a characterization and I say that based on personal experience. My -09 C4S was rear ended with damage to the decklid, the panel below and a small nick to the edge of the right quarter panel. Total cost of the repairs came to just shy of $5K. The repair showed up on Carfax but was undetectable, even to the folks doing the PPI. I showed pictures I took of the damage right after it happened to the individual who bought the car from me and I gave him the contact info for the shop that did the repairs. He paid me within $500 of the average price every online site's value calculator for used cars came up with for my car. That's a long way away from the 10-12% reduction you suggest is "just about right". Incidentally, I got a call recently from a man who considered buying this car from the man who bought it from me. He just wanted to confirm that the accident information he received from the current owner was accurate and he too was ready to pay fair market value for the same car.

Needless to point out, there are different kinds of buyers out there. Some will use an accident, no matter how minor and no matter how perfect the repair to beat up the seller. In your case to the tune of up to 12%. Then there's another kind. They will look at the car, look at the records available of the accident. Photos, repair receipts and direct communication with the shop that did the repairs. With that in hand they will decide if what they've learned warrants a discount and if so, how much. My buyer and the next one who recently called me found exactly the car they had been looking for and decided that the accident was minor, the repairs were 100% perfect and both were willing to pay next to fair market value for this car relative to a car with no history.

So I'm sorry. The "mandatory" 10-12% reduction in price for any accident, no matter how minor and no matter how perfect the repairs that you advocate simply doesn't have a place in the real world. I have two personal fairly recent examples of it. Come to think of it, I have three. My -06 C4S had the rear bumper repaired and repainted after somebody messed it up at a grocery store parking lot. That car was traded at a dealership and noticed it with their paint meter AFTER they had already given me a very generous trade in price. They didn't care. "Bumpers are fixed and resprayed all the time" they said.

captainbaker

I was referring to a major accident (deal killer) vs a bumper respray. Groovezilla explained it perfectly. Every buyer wants an original owner, original paint, clean carfax, perfect car. Unless the car is priced accordingly, expect the buyer to want a few dollars shaved off if there is a history blemish. Plus, when you go to sell the car, the burden of explaining the accident falls upon the seller. If a buyer has the option of buying one car with a clean carfax and another with an accident, all other factors being equal, they will buy the clean car. Now, as a buyer, we have a choice on how far we are willing to settle. A simple bumper respray is a no brainer. A bumper removal with engine removal and frame alignment is a different animal.

Desmo, please re read my post. I was comparing large markets with a guy out in the sticks. The guy in a large market will get a higher price in a shorter time compared to to a guy in BFE. IE larger pool of buyers.

groovzilla

You got played by the dealer - Did you notice them giggling in the corner after their BS about the "fixed and resprayed all the time" line ???
The dealer must have had a huge profit in the car they sold you on the trade in.
That's the only way you get market value for a traded in car with accident history showing on carfax.
No seasoned Porsche owner pays market on a car that has accident history, especially a dealer unless they have bank in the car they are selling on trade in.

DesmoSD

I hear ya but I slightly disagree. With so many social networks and better and more frequent interstate transports it has changed. Look at what BaT has done to the used car market.

captainbaker

Ill agree to that.

sandwedge

Sorry but you're wrong again. First off I don't think the resprayed rear bumper on the -06 C4S showed up on Carfax. Further, I had done months of research on what I should pay for an -09 C4S which is what I was trading my 06 in for. The car I bought was also a launch car with full leather, carbon fiber GT2 bucket seats, a set of $6,000 Champion wheels and a $3,000 Tubi exhaust. Had all of 2,100 miles on it and I bought it for slightly less than a regular -09 C4S with more miles per the research numbers I had come up with. I had also done the same amount of research on what my -06 C4S was worth as a trade in. They offered me just above the average of what I had come up with. The -06 C4S had close to 50K miles on it and needed a new clutch. Still worked fine but was very heavy which those familiar with 997's know is the first sign that the days are numbered. The dealer just walked around the car with a paint meter and didn't even drive my car so they found out about the clutch later.

Sum of it all. I got fair trade in money for a C4S with no deductions for a clutch job and paid slightly less than the research numbers I had come up with for a 2,100 mile CPO -09 C4S launch car with an additional $10,000 worth of after market options. So who got played here? Heck, I could have made this even better by pulling the bucket seats out, selling them for $7,000, sourced a set of any kind of regular seats and put another $5K to $6K in my pocket. More importantly to your main argument of what kind of discount should be applied to any Porsche with any kind of accident history regardless of circumstances, two long time Porsche owners have now bought what used to be my -09 C4S for what amounted to no discount on either transaction knowing full well about the previous damage. They did their research and decided it wasn't the kind of damage that makes the car worth less. As someone else pointed out, once you get into bigger stories like quarter panel work, frame damage etc. then I agree we're in different territory.

captainbaker

Ill throw in a wrench. My car had a mouse chew through the high pressure fuel line. $180 part, $3800 in labor at Porsche. Since I turned it in to insurance, I wonder if will show up on a carfax as an accident?

street rod

I don't think so but could possibly show up as "other damage". I think there is a decent chance it will not show up at all.

groovzilla

My initial post regarding 10-12% deduction was based on accident damage that shows on Carfax - Not an A+ color-matched respray of front bumper for rock chips. The psychological effect of having an accident (whether minor, moderate or major) on the Carfax is a bummer to majority of Porsche buyers and DOES effect resale.

*You mentioned in your above reply regarding your car's your paintwork above that it did NOT show on Carfax - So your point regarding my 10-12% loss of market value isn't comparing apples to apples.
I appreciate your input on many forum threads however I happen to have lots of experience in this area.
I mean no disrespect but I've been playing this game way too long.

sandwedge

I mean no disrespect either but this will never be an exact science no matter how long the game has been played . There will always be all kinds of variables such as the extent of the damage, the quality of the repair, Carfax reported or not and not to be dismissed, the attitude and flexibility of the buyer of a car with a history. Again, my -09 C4S with a $5,000 rear end repair history that does show up on Carfax has now changed hands twice by seasoned Porsche buyers who both decided the history wasn't worth haggling over and both paid what essentially amounted to what a car with no history would sell for. This is why in my opinion a non-negotiable 10-12% discount for a car with a Carfax history is misguided.

Some buyers (like yourself) will use that history to get your price with no attention to what actually happened, what the damage amounted to and to how it was fixed and by whom. Then there's the other kind of buyer who will assess the scope of the damage history and then decide if it warrants a discount and if it does, how much. I'm quick to repeat that getting into bigger stories like major body work, frame damage and such, then I would probably look elsewhere or expect an even bigger discount than the 10-12% you mentioned.

Maybe my -09 C4S example is an exception and an outlier but maybe not. I can see myself acting the way those buyers did. They found the exact car they had been looking for, in perfect condition but with a Carfax blemish that indicated very minor damage that was was visually undetectable. Why that car should be worth 10-12% less than one that didn't have those minor repairs done I think is a valid question. As did both those buyers.