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I have a new-to-me 997.2 S manual w/ 24k miles that has an odd, unsatisfying clutch feel. It doesn’t slip smoothly, but rather judders at small throttle openings in 1st and reverse, especially when you are trying to be very smooth. It’s less noticeable at larger throttle-openings, or when swapping between upper gears on the run, but I can still detect it, even then, if I concentrate.
My local dealer inspected the clutch. Reportedly it measures fine. They also test-drove the car and said it seems normal but perhaps has some “hot spots” on the clutch plate that are causing it to grab unevenly. My wife and a good buddy have each driven the car and didn’t think it was a big deal.
To me, after 28 years of driving manual transmissions and being rather fond of the process, I find it annoying and unrefined. In my prior P-cars (ranging from ‘70 911 to ’07 Cayman S) and the dozens (hundreds?) of P-cars I sampled during a decade-plus of instructing for PCA, the smoothness of the clutch uptake was much better than this. Also, the engagement point of the clutch pedal seems a tad high to me.
I can imagine new motor mounts addressing the “judder” symptom, perhaps, but I doubt they are the root cause. It seems more likely to be something wrong with the friction surface, or the mechanism by which the pedal modulates the clutch itself.
Hmm. I've had thuds, i've had chatter...but never a judder :-)
Thud - I can feel a small thud from time to time when first shifting into 1st or reverse. I read its fairly common and new engine mounts should eliminate it.
Chatter - I hit a pothole a couple months ago with the clutch partially depressed and it broke a finger on the pressure plate. The symptoms were a slight but high frequency vibration in the clutch pedal, enough to know something was wrong. My indy couldn't diagnose it until the clutch started to slip a few days later. Once we pulled the clutch we found the problem.
Judder - doesn't sound normal. As with my issue above, others couldnt tell the subtle change in pedal feel - but I could. Trust your instinct and keep digging.
One idea...I learned from my indy there is a fairly common issue with 997.1s where the rubber sleeve on the slave cylinder gets brittle with age and cracks. This allows the metal piston of the slave cylinder to rub directly on the clutch release arm. This metal on metal gouges the release arm and can cause issues. This might be the simplest thing to rule out because you can check it by pulling the slave. Most everything else you need to pull the transmission to diagnose.
I have a new-to-me 997.2 S manual w/ 24k miles that has an odd, unsatisfying clutch feel. It doesn’t slip smoothly, but rather judders at small throttle openings in 1st and reverse, especially when you are trying to be very smooth. It’s less noticeable at larger throttle-openings, or when swapping between upper gears on the run, but I can still detect it, even then, if I concentrate.
My local dealer inspected the clutch. Reportedly it measures fine. They also test-drove the car and said it seems normal but perhaps has some “hot spots” on the clutch plate that are causing it to grab unevenly. My wife and a good buddy have each driven the car and didn’t think it was a big deal.
To me, after 28 years of driving manual transmissions and being rather fond of the process, I find it annoying and unrefined. In my prior P-cars (ranging from ‘70 911 to ’07 Cayman S) and the dozens (hundreds?) of P-cars I sampled during a decade-plus of instructing for PCA, the smoothness of the clutch uptake was much better than this. Also, the engagement point of the clutch pedal seems a tad high to me.
I can imagine new motor mounts addressing the “judder” symptom, perhaps, but I doubt they are the root cause. It seems more likely to be something wrong with the friction surface, or the mechanism by which the pedal modulates the clutch itself.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Not sure how your dealer tested the clutch without removing the gearbox. All I know is a shudder (is this the same a s judder?) was a good indicator of a worn clutch on my 997.2.
Why not try an "Italian tune-up" to burn off the hotspots..assuming that's the issue ?
I suppose I should have used a more common word, but it’s accurate. In reverse, if I try to slowly engage the clutch uphill (like backing up a driveway) the whole rear of the car seems to shiver and shake for a sec while the clutch is being slipped (i.e. until wheel speed and engine speeds match).
Quickxotica
I have done quite a few clutches on my own cars and it sounds to me like the clutch has been hot and burned the surface of the pressure plate and flywheel. I’m really sensitive to this feel and it takes the fun out of driving the car for me. If your car has the stock dual mass flywheel then the stock clutch disk is not sprung so you feel this more. Once the surface has been overheated the burned spots have a different friction which is more grabby in spots and does not slip-in smoothly.
This can happen just from poor clutch technique, especially with frequent uphill starts in traffic, or from other abuse. In my experience these won’t heal with additional use. The clutch will keep working but won’t smooth out. The clutch does not have to be high mileage for this to happen. In fact, this often happens to clutches in the first 500 miles if poor technique is used before the clutch surface is fully mated (broke in) with the flywheel. I’ve driven friends cars (not just Porsches) where this is very apparent to me but the owner does not even notice. If you elect to have it changed ask to see your old parts and you will likely see that it looks burned with dark scuff marks on the pressure plate and flywheel.
If if you decide to replace the clutch give the dealer a shot. I have found the dealer is very competive with Indy shops on this particular repair and you get a 2 year parts and labor warranty. You will likely need the clutch kit and a new flywheel.
Thanks! My car came with a factory LSD, so I suppose that may be an ingredient here... but more likely I think is the "hotspots" issue mentioned by the dealer and elaborated on by Jeffblak above. My thanks.
Now I just get to torture myself over whether its worth replacing an otherwise fine clutch just to rid myself of the annoyance. I suppose there is no rush... the car is otherwise a gem.
Cheers guys. I'll post an update if/when I learn more.
I also assume this is the original clutch and an OEM one at that. Clutches for high horsepower & torque applications, especially those with segmented discs can be very "grabby" and create this type of judder on engagement, but if ti's the original OEM clutch, someone smoked it and got it too hot, and it's either warped, has hot-spots or material transferred to the flywheel, or something else wrong. These cars shift so nicely that you should bite the bullet and replace it as it will detract from the overall enjoyment of the car every time to leave a stop in forward or reverse.
I also vote for fixing it. As both Petza914 and I stated, this is a classic burned clutch symptom. I bought my 2007 C4S with 23K miles and it felt the same way when I first drove it, so I just considered the repair part of the price of the car. You see a lot of this with cars driven around the San Francisco Bay Area. Here is what the pressure plate and flywheel looked like when they came out. You can't reliably resurface the flywheel on these dual mass units, you just have to replace it. Fixing it was a must for me in order to really enjoy my new car. One last thing, the dealer OEM clutch kit and flywheel was the only one that would guarantee that the set was fully balanced and ready for installation as shipped. Others are likely balanced also, but they would not put that in writing. If you have ever installed a clutch and had a vibration afterwards you know how frustrating that can be.
My 2000 Boxster S would do this occasionally. BTW, I got 197K miles out of this clutch when the engine blew so I never really knew how long it would last.
I discussed this with my dealer... yadda yadda.... In short, if you drag the clutch at all, as habit, on the release, you will start getting a judder. I just had to be more precise and not do so many slow starts. If you are a bit more aggressive and let it out quicker, the juddering will slowly go away.
Another cause of this judder is not rev matching when down shifting. Read up on heel/toeing.... you should never downshift and then slowly release the clutch to not jerk the car... blipping the throttle up with a quick release is the correct way to down shift.
Either of the items above is a source of clutch dragging and can give you hot spots that cause juddering. Shift correctly and the juddering will slowly go away (this assumes there is nothing broken in there).
I have it too on a 2007 C4S with 125000kms. Ah, it can be a little bit annoying if you let it annoy you. I ignore it and as someone else mentioned, don't slip the clutch as much, get going more swiftly and you won't get it.
05-03-2018, 08:07 PM
Clutch "judder" question - 997.2 6MT
