2010 C4S PDK failure
03-27-2018, 01:02 AM
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Track Day
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2010 C4S PDK failure
Hola amigos-
In the spirit of giving back for all I have learned here, I offer you my own experience with my recent PDK failure. Not a fan of dragging out anxiety/drama online, I can tell you the entire story from start to finish, as it is a done deal. Sorry if a bit longwinded and tangential, but I want to provide full disclosure and details that some might care about. Skip to the bottom if you want.
The background:
Started looking for a 911 spring 2015, and considered 997.1, 997.2, and 991.1 C2, C2S, C4s, and 1 997.1 turbo. Drove examples of each, and settled on 997.2. Looked for months, and almost gave up the search due to issues with each car I saw in person. I favored a manual transmission, but availability was minimal. My 2010 C4S showed up on Carmax at a CA dealer in late July, and they do free transfers of AWD vehicles to CO. I talked to a rep at the CA dealership and asked for a walk around inspection for general wear & tear, got a good report, and got the car transferred to my closest dealer in CO for no charge and no commitment to buy. They do not offer the option of taking a car for PPI, but offer a 5 day no questions asked return period. This car had 4 or 5 previous owners, all in CA I believe. I considered the car to be in 9/10 cosmetic condition, and bought it with just under 35k miles for just under $60k. Carmax is spoken of around here with a fairly condescending tone, and I agree that it is not the place to go when looking for a mint condition unicorn that will satisfy all OCD needs for prior documentation. But they do offer something the most OCD prior owner can't, and that is an extended warranty which can be even less expensive and offer longer coverage even than Porsche CPO program. I got their Maxcare warranty for an additional 5 years or to 100K miles for $2800.
I took it to a local independent shop for (post) PPI, which was generally positive but showed a slight leak in the transmission pan. I took the documentation back to Carmax, and this was repaired at a Porsche dealership under the Carmax 30 day warranty, which is different from the Maxcare extended warranty. I had some anxiety about this but figured that since this issue was identified early and repaired I would be covered if future transmission issues came up.
I drive the car year round but generally only 1-2 days a week. I have winter tires/rims and added spacers the first time I changed out the wheels for the season. I live about 7 miles from work, bicycle commute 2-3 days a week, and have a Subaru outback as a general beater. I drive the C4S and Outback each about 5k miles a year. When I drive the C4S I generally take a longer route to work and get the oil up to operating temperature for more than a few minutes. And I drive in manual/sport mode over 90% of the time to keep the RPM below 3000 before the oil is warm, and above 3000 after it is warm. Oil changes have been done at an independent shop at least once a year or every 5k miles. At the 40k maintenance I had the indy do Sharkwerks center pipe + Fister cans, install lowering springs and do alignment. Perfection.
at about 38k miles I had a transmission fault code P172D for "implausible temperature change in temperature sensor." This was in February 2016 FWIW. It did not affect drivability. I had it checked at the closest dealer who inspected the car, cleared the code, and could not reproduce it.
The meat of the story:
Saturday March 3 2018 - beautiful day, sunny with a high of 68. 48,xxx miles on the car. Drove about 20 miles north with my youngest son with me, met my wife and other sons for an hour with plans to go to the outdoor batting cage for the first weekend it was open this season. Got back in the car, drove about a mile in manual mode, and got a "transmission emergency run" warning. I was in a mixed residential and business area and the car would not shift gears in manual mode (stuck in 2nd). I pulled off the main road to a side street, and parked on the side of the road to look at the owner's manual. I first put it in park and then shifted back to drive, and it would not engage in gear or go. I tried this several more times, in manual and automatic mode, and nothing. I turned the car off, restarted it and again nothing. First lesson here - if you ever get this code, make sure you park in a place you can stay for a while, and where your car can easily be loaded onto a flatbed. I got lucky with this. I also got lucky with the fact that there was a sandwich shop across the road where I could wait, eat and charge my phone. Fortunately my wife was still nearby with my other sons and she took my youngest with her. The batting cage would need to wait for another day.
It took several hours for the flatbed to arrive. I was worried about whether the car would shift into neutral to load on the flatbed with a nonfunctional PDK. There is a procedure in the owners manual to do this if necessary, but I did not need to. The shifter moved freely, and the car rolled freely in neutral. The flatbed driver was very careful and attentive to details, and I was glad I had some cash in my wallet to give him a tip. I had planned to ride with him to the dealership but would not get there before closing, so I took an Uber home. Random coincidence or cosmic event, the Uber driver was the nephew of the owner of the batting cage we were going to, and we had a nice extended conversation on the ride home.
I called the dealer on Monday to make sure my car was there OK. I also spoke with a rep from the Carmax warranty - I don't know a lot about it but gather from my interaction that it is a 3rd party company and that I was not dealing directly with Carmax. They gave me contact information to provide the dealer. It took the dealer a few days to get to my car, and about a week to get me a definitive diagnosis. I assumed the worst, and my only question was whether the warranty would cover it, and how much of a nightmare they would put me through first. The dealer called me back a little over a week after the car got there, and let me know that the transmission would need to be replaced. They informed me that there were not any units in the US and it would need to be brought from Germany, and that the whole process might take 2-3 weeks. I gave them the contact info for the warranty company, whom I never heard from after my initial conversation with them. Within a few days I got another call from the dealer to let me know the repair would be covered by the warranty and I would be liable only for my $500 deductible.
I got a call last Thursday that the work was done, and that they were waiting for payment from the warranty company. I got a call this morning that the payment had gone through and I could pick the car up. I picked it up just before the dealer closed this afternoon, and on my hour long drive home thru cold rain and snow and traffic, everything seems fine.
I believe I was given a refurbished PDK. I feel like I am at the mercy of the warranty company for this, and while a new PDK would be nice I do not feel like I am being treated unfairly. It has a 2 year parts and labor warranty from the manufacturer, outside of the extended warranty under which it was repaired. Total parts, labor, and tax came to about $13k. I paid my $500 deductible, and never spoke to anyone at Carmax or their warranty company after my initial conversation.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions, and will post a few of my own:
1. Carmax is not sexy but they are legitimate. I follow their 911 inventory regularly, they generally have between 8 and 15 cars in the US, many with less than ideal configurations. But if they have something close to what you want, and you can live with less than a near mint condition 1 or 2 owner car with complete documentation, they sell a reasonably priced aftermarket warranty that has proven itself to cover one of the major catastrophic liabilities of a modern 911. In addition, they have proven themselves very easy to deal with. And as an added bonus, the warranty is transferrable should I choose to sell my car during the 2 1/2 remaining years the warranty is valid, which should support resale value. Based on my experience so far I would deal with them again in the right situation.
2. PDK failure is rare, but it is real and it is both a hassle and expensive. FWIW I asked the service manager at the dealer how often they replace PDK's, and he said he thought this was the first in about 3 years. I am always a little bit skeptical, but the fact that the PDK had to be brought from Germany rather than from a collection sitting in a warehouse in the US would seem to support this. The prospect of being left high and dry by this car also concerns me, not just for issues like what I just experienced but also because of no spare tire. In addition to the OEM equipment I carry a scissor jack and several different types of tire repair kit, but have not bought an aftermarket spare. There are situations particularly in my professional life in which I need to respond to an emergency on off hours or on the weekend, and I can't be left waiting for help. For this reason and more I can't own a 911 as my only car, and I can't count on driving it in every situation. Because of the lack of repairability of the PDK I am not sure how comfortable I will be owning this car without some extended warranty. I could afford to pay for the repair, but a $13k bill would be a hell of a bummer. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that this possibility has an effect on resale value particularly for cars with no extended warranty available.
3. 911's are fun to drive, and I'm glad to have mine back after over 3 weeks!
In the spirit of giving back for all I have learned here, I offer you my own experience with my recent PDK failure. Not a fan of dragging out anxiety/drama online, I can tell you the entire story from start to finish, as it is a done deal. Sorry if a bit longwinded and tangential, but I want to provide full disclosure and details that some might care about. Skip to the bottom if you want.
The background:
Started looking for a 911 spring 2015, and considered 997.1, 997.2, and 991.1 C2, C2S, C4s, and 1 997.1 turbo. Drove examples of each, and settled on 997.2. Looked for months, and almost gave up the search due to issues with each car I saw in person. I favored a manual transmission, but availability was minimal. My 2010 C4S showed up on Carmax at a CA dealer in late July, and they do free transfers of AWD vehicles to CO. I talked to a rep at the CA dealership and asked for a walk around inspection for general wear & tear, got a good report, and got the car transferred to my closest dealer in CO for no charge and no commitment to buy. They do not offer the option of taking a car for PPI, but offer a 5 day no questions asked return period. This car had 4 or 5 previous owners, all in CA I believe. I considered the car to be in 9/10 cosmetic condition, and bought it with just under 35k miles for just under $60k. Carmax is spoken of around here with a fairly condescending tone, and I agree that it is not the place to go when looking for a mint condition unicorn that will satisfy all OCD needs for prior documentation. But they do offer something the most OCD prior owner can't, and that is an extended warranty which can be even less expensive and offer longer coverage even than Porsche CPO program. I got their Maxcare warranty for an additional 5 years or to 100K miles for $2800.
I took it to a local independent shop for (post) PPI, which was generally positive but showed a slight leak in the transmission pan. I took the documentation back to Carmax, and this was repaired at a Porsche dealership under the Carmax 30 day warranty, which is different from the Maxcare extended warranty. I had some anxiety about this but figured that since this issue was identified early and repaired I would be covered if future transmission issues came up.
I drive the car year round but generally only 1-2 days a week. I have winter tires/rims and added spacers the first time I changed out the wheels for the season. I live about 7 miles from work, bicycle commute 2-3 days a week, and have a Subaru outback as a general beater. I drive the C4S and Outback each about 5k miles a year. When I drive the C4S I generally take a longer route to work and get the oil up to operating temperature for more than a few minutes. And I drive in manual/sport mode over 90% of the time to keep the RPM below 3000 before the oil is warm, and above 3000 after it is warm. Oil changes have been done at an independent shop at least once a year or every 5k miles. At the 40k maintenance I had the indy do Sharkwerks center pipe + Fister cans, install lowering springs and do alignment. Perfection.
at about 38k miles I had a transmission fault code P172D for "implausible temperature change in temperature sensor." This was in February 2016 FWIW. It did not affect drivability. I had it checked at the closest dealer who inspected the car, cleared the code, and could not reproduce it.
The meat of the story:
Saturday March 3 2018 - beautiful day, sunny with a high of 68. 48,xxx miles on the car. Drove about 20 miles north with my youngest son with me, met my wife and other sons for an hour with plans to go to the outdoor batting cage for the first weekend it was open this season. Got back in the car, drove about a mile in manual mode, and got a "transmission emergency run" warning. I was in a mixed residential and business area and the car would not shift gears in manual mode (stuck in 2nd). I pulled off the main road to a side street, and parked on the side of the road to look at the owner's manual. I first put it in park and then shifted back to drive, and it would not engage in gear or go. I tried this several more times, in manual and automatic mode, and nothing. I turned the car off, restarted it and again nothing. First lesson here - if you ever get this code, make sure you park in a place you can stay for a while, and where your car can easily be loaded onto a flatbed. I got lucky with this. I also got lucky with the fact that there was a sandwich shop across the road where I could wait, eat and charge my phone. Fortunately my wife was still nearby with my other sons and she took my youngest with her. The batting cage would need to wait for another day.
It took several hours for the flatbed to arrive. I was worried about whether the car would shift into neutral to load on the flatbed with a nonfunctional PDK. There is a procedure in the owners manual to do this if necessary, but I did not need to. The shifter moved freely, and the car rolled freely in neutral. The flatbed driver was very careful and attentive to details, and I was glad I had some cash in my wallet to give him a tip. I had planned to ride with him to the dealership but would not get there before closing, so I took an Uber home. Random coincidence or cosmic event, the Uber driver was the nephew of the owner of the batting cage we were going to, and we had a nice extended conversation on the ride home.
I called the dealer on Monday to make sure my car was there OK. I also spoke with a rep from the Carmax warranty - I don't know a lot about it but gather from my interaction that it is a 3rd party company and that I was not dealing directly with Carmax. They gave me contact information to provide the dealer. It took the dealer a few days to get to my car, and about a week to get me a definitive diagnosis. I assumed the worst, and my only question was whether the warranty would cover it, and how much of a nightmare they would put me through first. The dealer called me back a little over a week after the car got there, and let me know that the transmission would need to be replaced. They informed me that there were not any units in the US and it would need to be brought from Germany, and that the whole process might take 2-3 weeks. I gave them the contact info for the warranty company, whom I never heard from after my initial conversation with them. Within a few days I got another call from the dealer to let me know the repair would be covered by the warranty and I would be liable only for my $500 deductible.
I got a call last Thursday that the work was done, and that they were waiting for payment from the warranty company. I got a call this morning that the payment had gone through and I could pick the car up. I picked it up just before the dealer closed this afternoon, and on my hour long drive home thru cold rain and snow and traffic, everything seems fine.
I believe I was given a refurbished PDK. I feel like I am at the mercy of the warranty company for this, and while a new PDK would be nice I do not feel like I am being treated unfairly. It has a 2 year parts and labor warranty from the manufacturer, outside of the extended warranty under which it was repaired. Total parts, labor, and tax came to about $13k. I paid my $500 deductible, and never spoke to anyone at Carmax or their warranty company after my initial conversation.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions, and will post a few of my own:
1. Carmax is not sexy but they are legitimate. I follow their 911 inventory regularly, they generally have between 8 and 15 cars in the US, many with less than ideal configurations. But if they have something close to what you want, and you can live with less than a near mint condition 1 or 2 owner car with complete documentation, they sell a reasonably priced aftermarket warranty that has proven itself to cover one of the major catastrophic liabilities of a modern 911. In addition, they have proven themselves very easy to deal with. And as an added bonus, the warranty is transferrable should I choose to sell my car during the 2 1/2 remaining years the warranty is valid, which should support resale value. Based on my experience so far I would deal with them again in the right situation.
2. PDK failure is rare, but it is real and it is both a hassle and expensive. FWIW I asked the service manager at the dealer how often they replace PDK's, and he said he thought this was the first in about 3 years. I am always a little bit skeptical, but the fact that the PDK had to be brought from Germany rather than from a collection sitting in a warehouse in the US would seem to support this. The prospect of being left high and dry by this car also concerns me, not just for issues like what I just experienced but also because of no spare tire. In addition to the OEM equipment I carry a scissor jack and several different types of tire repair kit, but have not bought an aftermarket spare. There are situations particularly in my professional life in which I need to respond to an emergency on off hours or on the weekend, and I can't be left waiting for help. For this reason and more I can't own a 911 as my only car, and I can't count on driving it in every situation. Because of the lack of repairability of the PDK I am not sure how comfortable I will be owning this car without some extended warranty. I could afford to pay for the repair, but a $13k bill would be a hell of a bummer. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that this possibility has an effect on resale value particularly for cars with no extended warranty available.
3. 911's are fun to drive, and I'm glad to have mine back after over 3 weeks!
Last edited by fc3; 03-27-2018 at 01:27 AM.
03-27-2018, 02:16 AM
#4
Nordschleife Master
PDK failures may be rare but a number of them have been documented on this forum which represents a tiny fraction of all the PDK cars rolling around on US roads so how rare are they? Porsche will never reveal the actual number but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't keep some replacement units in the US rather than having each one shipped in from Germany on a case by case basis. Did I luck out or did they change policies? Or is the same policy in place but in your case they just ran out of replacements and ended up with an empty warehouse?
03-27-2018, 05:19 AM
#5
Good thing you had the warranty. It certainly saved your wallet.
Never believe what people at dealerships tell you. Everyone will have a different story to tell. Spare pdk in stock in usa, spares only in germany. PDK never fails, pdk failure is common etc etc.
Never believe what people at dealerships tell you. Everyone will have a different story to tell. Spare pdk in stock in usa, spares only in germany. PDK never fails, pdk failure is common etc etc.
03-27-2018, 08:57 AM
#6
I used my Max care warranty as well, no questions asked and they covered my coolant leak repair that was about 3300 and done at the local dealer. I doubt ZF and Porsche ever lets anyone besides them open a PDK up and repair it. I doubt Porsche does it, as I'm betting they get shipped to ZF, get repaired and sent back out to a warehouse.
03-27-2018, 11:58 AM
#7
Good to know. I have my Corvette warranty through Carmax. The cost was actually about 2/3 what I was quoted by the company I had my 997 warranty with. No way I would spend on a late-model 911 without a comprehensive warranty. Of all the cars I've had aftermarket warranties on, I never lost a dime and usually came out ahead, but the 997 was far and beyond due to engine replacement. There's no way I would self insure for the cost of an engine or a PDK.
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03-27-2018, 12:03 PM
#8
The Doug Demuro saga on Jalopnik with his Range Rover was a good read, with what the Max care costs, and how much they paid out to fix things.....it was 3-4 K perhaps for the top warranty and I think they have paid out well over 13 K in repairs. Two lessons, never buy a Range Rover and Max care works pretty well
03-27-2018, 12:21 PM
#9
Instructor
I also have the Carmax warranty. Previous owner bought it and it transferred to me. Have used it recently to replace front end module and diagnostics. No questions asked, no hassle, definitely worth it. They work at both P dealers and indies.
03-27-2018, 12:41 PM
#10
sorry to hear, but glad this was not a long back and forth with adjusters ect. good to know CARMAX will cover this without red tape.
03-27-2018, 12:57 PM
#11
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I am becoming my father: "Dad, look at the cool blah blah on my new blah blah........" "What's that going to cost to fix?"
I had two Porsche engines fail.... that PDK scared me. Rational? I don't care, I was burnt....
Peace
Bruce in Philly
I had two Porsche engines fail.... that PDK scared me. Rational? I don't care, I was burnt....
Peace
Bruce in Philly
03-27-2018, 01:47 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
glad it is all going to work out. I would be fascinated to find out about correlating issues, maybe it'd be wild goose chase.
as far as self insuring on PDK goes.. I guess the costs are a bit relative. Sure you could buy a manual instead, but it wouldn't necessarily be cheaper, over the life of the car. $3-6k clutch job.. do it 2-3x times in the entire life of the car (lets say 200k miles).. .well you would be looking at the same cost or more as a PDK replacement. recent examples from this forum all with costs at $3500 or above all the way up to $5k
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14586463&postcount=20
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14596030&postcount=32
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14675220&postcount=42
as far as self insuring on PDK goes.. I guess the costs are a bit relative. Sure you could buy a manual instead, but it wouldn't necessarily be cheaper, over the life of the car. $3-6k clutch job.. do it 2-3x times in the entire life of the car (lets say 200k miles).. .well you would be looking at the same cost or more as a PDK replacement. recent examples from this forum all with costs at $3500 or above all the way up to $5k
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14586463&postcount=20
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14596030&postcount=32
https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14675220&postcount=42
03-27-2018, 03:32 PM
#13
Track Day
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Thx for all your replies. The main issue here is not Porsche-specific, it applies to most modern cars. Car repair seems more and more like computer repair now. You don't repair individual pieces so much as you replace an entire module. BTW the PDK replacement on my car also required replacing the ECU. My "beater" is a 2013 Subaru Outback with a CVT transmission (flame away, I don't care). Same deal with it - if it fails, it gets replaced as a unit, at a cost of around $7k for the unit if you believe what you read on the Subaru forums. I bought and extended warranty for that car thru Subaru when the time came. My wife has a 2013 Mercedes GL350 bluetec that has the most amazing diesel powertrain ever. She puts a lot of miles on it, and we bought an extended warranty for it thru MB that will expire when it reaches 100k miles sometime in the next 6-9 months. I initially thought we should keep that vehicle forever because I love the powertrain and overall functionality so much, but the extended warranty has already paid for itself, and I don't want to self insure for potential 10-20k repair costs for it. I'm trying to figure out what all this means for car ownership right now. Just drive a simpler/more inexpensive car with a manual transmission? Lease a nicer car and be off the hook for major catastrophic repair costs? Buy new and get an extended warranty when the original is up? Carmax makes a lot of sense for something like a 911, or even something like a Macan which I am also considering for a future vehicle. You can get a 2-7 year old vehicle and not get hit so bad with initial depreciation, and get a reasonable aftermarket warranty that more often than not will probably at least pay for itself, maybe even many times over. I don't like having a lot of cash tied up in depreciating assets like these, and I'm not sure if the ultimate lesson might not be just to drive a less expensive car with a manual transmission. Anyway, for now will continue to enjoy what I have!
03-27-2018, 04:34 PM
#14
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I initially thought we should keep that vehicle forever because I love the powertrain and overall functionality so much, but the extended warranty has already paid for itself, and I don't want to self insure for potential 10-20k repair costs for it. I'm trying to figure out what all this means for car ownership right now. Just drive a simpler/more inexpensive car with a manual transmission? Lease a nicer car and be off the hook for major catastrophic repair costs? Buy new and get an extended warranty when the original is up? Carmax makes a lot of sense for something like a 911, or even something like a Macan which I am also considering for a future vehicle. You can get a 2-7 year old vehicle and not get hit so bad with initial depreciation, and get a reasonable aftermarket warranty that more often than not will probably at least pay for itself, maybe even many times over. I don't like having a lot of cash tied up in depreciating assets like these, and I'm not sure if the ultimate lesson might not be just to drive a less expensive car with a manual transmission. Anyway, for now will continue to enjoy what I have!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
03-27-2018, 04:42 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
How often were you driving your car? Would the car sit undriven for long periods of time?