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Same stuff..... almost. Given the slight differences, full disclosure here... I am willing to take the crazy chance that the variances of ingredients are so small (my opinion), that weighing the difference between a happy functioning Porsche and a fiery crash with multiple explosions, an EPA wetlands disaster, and a slow death... with pain... only to have my last gasping life gnawed out of me by a rabid squirrel with dull teeth.. I will choose the less pleasant side of that choice. I have been using Permatex on my Porsches and wife's Lexus... for 18 years now on the Porsches while doing winter/summer tire swaps each year along with brake work etc.... oh, and I still have the same tiny tube for all those 18 years!
O/P - First question on your very tight lugs. Who put them on last? You or the shop.
Shops are in a hurry. Often they take the off with the airgun on #4, and don't dial them back, and install on the #4 setting.
Most of the time, they never use a torque wrench.
Second question - What lugs are on your car, Porsche standard? Or spacer and aftermarket? Are they full steel lug? They often rust more.
I used to have to clean mine. In the cordless impact, spinning through a wire brush. Keep them clean.
Third observation- I too have a impact gun, cordless 5+ years old, not new, well loved. I have never been able to use it to break the nut or lug.
Just not enough juice. Maybe it's time for 24V !
Anti seize? For me, only at the hub where the two metals meet. Steel and aluminum,rust or corrode.
For the 997 the torque spec is 96 ft lbs. It does not go up to 118 ft lbs till the 991 series, mainly do to the larger 20" wheels.
From the service manual (2012 version)...
Silver wheel bolts (up to model year 2011) = 96 ftlb. or 118 ftlb. also permitted retroactively.
Silver wheel bolts (as of model year 2012) = 118 ftlb.)
Black wheel bolts = 118 ftlb.
I dont put any materials on lugs, it tends to attract dirt and dust and get caked up. if you have clean threads and put your lugs no right, 96-100 lbs, you wont have trouble. Thats another reason I only use chrome lugs, they dont get rusty and stay clean and dont look dirty
I have always used the copper base anti-seize on the lugnut threads. I just add a very small amount on the leading treads. I have never had an issue with dust or dirt. I statred this on my off road vehicles and now just do it as a standard. I do avoid it on spacers that have their own bolts.
I've never had a problem removing properly torqued lugs. I don't use an impact anywhere near my wheels, a small breaker bar designed for wheel and tire removal is all I've ever needed.
I put a tiny dab on the leading threads of each bolt. One tiny dab will last you 5-10 removals. My Porter Cable impact gun works great!!! See my vid below.
My Porsche owners manual specifies the use of anti-seize..... the permatex silver stuff in the little tube is fine... it is primarily aluminum grease.
I use Marine Grade anti-seize on my lug bolts and torque to 110 ft. lbs. - happy medium between the old 96 ft. lbs. spec and newer 118 ft. lbs. spec. It was my understanding that the change to 118 ft.lbs. was released for the 991 but retroactive. Loren from Renntech confirms this is the case as an option
I also believe torque specs are based on achieving the proper fastener stretch - lubrication reduces the friction on the fastener so that the proper material stretch can occur. Without it, the frictional forces will allow you to achieve the torque rating sooner, before the stretch is achieved. For those of you installing your lug nuts or bolts dry, I would suggest at least moving up to the optional 118 ft.lb. value and maybe dry installation is the reason Porsche revised the spec, but I have no idea.
Since I've never had an issue with lug bolts loosening and don't have any trouble removing them with my method, that's what I'll continue to do. As Bruce said, you don't have to apply it each time, just the first time and then it pretty much remains in place for many wheel removal and reinstallation cycles.
Bruce, the difference between products listed as an anti-seize and those listed as an assembly paste, is anti seize will have an extreme pressure lubricant. The Permatex has a heavy naphthenic-chemDplus. The Optimal TA utilizes kaolinite a refined clay silicate mineral.
My dad repaired vintage cars and he would curse wheel lug bolt/studs that were stretched and fatigued by heavy use of anti-seize. The characteristics of anti-seize will help a nut/bolt screw in an extra turn or two for any given torque wrench setting. In some engineering lists two torque settings are given one for use with anti seize and one for dry or lightly lubed.
Modern cars use vastly improved metallurgy over their antique ancestors, so I’m sure a
fine craftsman like you (using a practiced hand on the wrench) will be fine.
O/P - First question on your very tight lugs. Who put them on last? You or the shop.
Shops are in a hurry. Often they take the off with the airgun on #4, and don't dial them back, and install on the #4 setting.
Most of the time, they never use a torque wrench.
Second question - What lugs are on your car, Porsche standard? Or spacer and aftermarket? Are they full steel lug? They often rust more.
I used to have to clean mine. In the cordless impact, spinning through a wire brush. Keep them clean.
Third observation- I too have a impact gun, cordless 5+ years old, not new, well loved. I have never been able to use it to break the nut or lug.
Just not enough juice. Maybe it's time for 24V !
Anti seize? For me, only at the hub where the two metals meet. Steel and aluminum,rust or corrode.
The car is new to me so I don't know who the last wheel removal was with. Standard lugs as far as I can tell. Factory 5 mm spacers.
Bruce, the difference between products listed as an anti-seize and those listed as an assembly paste, is anti seize will have an extreme pressure lubricant. The Permatex has a heavy naphthenic-chemDplus. The Optimal TA utilizes kaolinite a refined clay silicate mineral.
My dad repaired vintage cars and he would curse wheel lug bolt/studs that were stretched and fatigued by heavy use of anti-seize. The characteristics of anti-seize will help a nut/bolt screw in an extra turn or two for any given torque wrench setting. In some engineering lists two torque settings are given one for use with anti seize and one for dry or lightly lubed.
Modern cars use vastly improved metallurgy over their antique ancestors, so I’m sure a
fine craftsman like you (using a practiced hand on the wrench) will be fine.
I didn't mean to disparage your comment... I looked back on my post it may appear I am poking at you. What I really wanted to say, with humor, is that I do my research to a point and then stop. I fully suspect the Porsche-recommended stuff is "better" but I always question how much better or how much worse is an alternative. My perspective is that for some things, I will "drop a notch" and be OK with it. Long time ago, I asked the shop foreman at the P-dealer where I purchased my Boxster about anti-sieze and he said the Permatex stuff is fine. Is he an authority? I dunno..... Many of these senior Porsche techs disagree.... is my expert better than your expert? Again, I research to a point of comfort and then stop.
As i mentioned before - dry threads create unreliable frictiona and all toque values when designing a bolt/crew connectionare based on lubricated threads. When too much friction is used the main part of the torque is used to overcome friction and not in reality to load the jount with pressure.
Q: What happens to preload in the joint during reuse?
A: It is common in many applications to reuse the same nuts and bolts as long as they are in good condition after operation. What happens to the joint preload during reuse is, however, not always considered.
During tightening, metal faces between male and female threads, as well as between the bolt head/nut and substrate, grind against each other causing wear to occur. The result is higher and more scattered friction.
Friction scatter is inherent in every bolted joint upon each installation and can be quite large when installing without any lubrication. When fasteners are reused and tightened to a specific torque, more of the applied torque is required to overcome the friction and less is utilised to obtain the required preload. For each subsequent reuse the preload becomes lower and more inaccurate. This can cause issues when the designer has specified a preload range for the application to maintain sufficient clamp force to overcome the external forces on those joints. Finally, the preload may not be sufficient to withstand the working load applied to the joint, which subsequently fails.
By lubricating the fastener before every use, not only can friction be reduced to improve torque-to-load ratio, friction scatter can also be reduced to improve preload accuracy. The graph here illustrates the torque-to-load behaviour between a dry installation and a lubricated installation. While the preload scatter at a given torque is quite random, you can influence the variability of that scatter by this simple modification.
The prescriptions of the manufacturer regarding lubrication have priority and must be followed. It may be necessary to reduce the torque to avoid damage to the bolt or the clamped parts.
01-18-2018, 10:01 AM
