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Not intending to knock any particular product, but this is why the racer in me thinks twice before introducing additional failure points into a system.
Not intending to knock any particular product, but this is why the racer in me thinks twice before introducing additional failure points into a system.
Actually, the racer in you should understand the value of a metal canister filter where a piece of track debris won't fracture it like it can a plastic one, and where each oil change uses a brand new filter instead of reusing the plastic case with a new element, that over hundreds of heat cycles becomes brittle as the esters in the plastic are evaporated out. And that's not to mention that the OEM design also incorporates a spring based bypass valve. As that spring ages and fatigues, how much of our oil do you think is actually bypassing the filtration and going through the bypass valve instead of through the media?
There are so many things and areas on all cars that can be dramatically improved with the aftermarket - the manufactures don't do them purely for financial reasons, as that plastic filter housing probably costs Porsche a quarter.,
And not to get too personal but this is exactly why racers are not mechanics or mechanical engineers, necessarily
I am 99% sure that this was user error, meaning my mistake, versus the product purchased from LN engineering
I am sure if you are familiar with the company or been to the website you are well aware of their race scene heritage and background
Originally Posted by cosm3os
Not intending to knock any particular product, but this is why the racer in me thinks twice before introducing additional failure points into a system.
You people are sensitive! As I said, not a knock on anybody or their products (LN is close to me and you can bet when my motor blows like it's supposed to as I have read on these forums, it's going to them for a rebuild). Again, just saying one should think twice. Introducing the opportunity for user error is the number one reason to carefully consider whether to add failure points to a system on a car.
Actually, the racer in you should understand the value of a metal canister filter where a piece of track debris won't fracture it like it can a plastic one, and where each oil change uses a brand new filter instead of reusing the plastic case with a new element, that over hundreds of heat cycles becomes brittle as the esters in the plastic are evaporated out. And that's not to mention that the OEM design also incorporates a spring based bypass valve. As that spring ages and fatigues, how much of our oil do you think is actually bypassing the filtration and going through the bypass valve instead of through the media?
There are so many things and areas on all cars that can be dramatically improved with the aftermarket - the manufactures don't do them purely for financial reasons, as that plastic filter housing probably costs Porsche a quarter.,
I can see an argument for the plastic getting brittle--so replace it. I'd be willing to bet that the chance of debris hitting the canister is less than the chance that user error results in a leak like in this case. As for the bypass spring--you tell me. How much flow is being directed? None? Some? Lots? Who knows, but I can avoid that concern by keeping up with frequent oil changes.
I can see an argument for the plastic getting brittle--so replace it. I'd be willing to bet that the chance of debris hitting the canister is less than the chance that user error results in a leak like in this case. As for the bypass spring--you tell me. How much flow is being directed? None? Some? Lots? Who knows, but I can avoid that concern by keeping up with frequent oil changes.
Actually, you can't, because you're reusing the spring oil change after oil change. Let's say the spring is designed to bypass the media at some hypothetical pressure value like 30 psi. As that spring ages and is kept in a compressed position in hot oil in the filter for some number of miles, the metal that the spring is made of begins to fatigue. Now instead of exerting a force of 30 psi to the bypass valve it's only exerting a force of 20 psi, so the valve is partially open all the time and some of the oil is actually bypassing the filter media each cycle through the motor - does that oil have the tiny metal particles or debris you're trying to keep out of circulation, or is it the other oil that's still being filtered - like you say, who knows. With the spin on filter adapter and using a new canister filter with each oil change, it too has a bypass valve, but you're putting in a fresh bypass valve with each oil change so the spring that controls the valve works at the proper pressure, then you discard it and start with another new spring 4,000-5,000 miles later. I guess you could calibrate the OEM spring when it's brand new with a small sample size of the springs, then test the coefficient of resistance at each oil change to make sure it's still behaving the same way, but isn't it easier just to install a new filter that has a new spring built into it and a new oil filter canister that hasn't been exposed to hundreds or thousands of heat cycles?
I think it is so I use the LN adapter like Rod does.
Ok. Finally got a chance now that the Holidays are over and visitors are gone, to tackle this “fix”.
Good news and bad news. I jacked up the car, took the old filter off and the LN adapter came off with it, which means I had to put the filter in a vise and use a modified spanner wrench to get the LN adaptor off.
Once I got it off, reinstalled it using the spec 18 ft lbs of torque. Lubed (with the oil) the seals on the adaptor and the new K&N filter. Cleaned the area fairly well with degreaser so I can tell where any new oil might be coming from if there is an issue.
Drove around yesterday and today there is another pile of oil on the floor.
Totally frustrated tonight I jacked it back up. The good news is that it appears to be leaking from either between the oil filter and the adaptor OR the adapter and the car. My guess is that it is the adaptor and the car since, when I went to twist it on, even though there was a seal, it didn’t feel like there was anything there, no resistance or tightness. Here are the pics that show that there is only oil coming out above the filter and not the engine (which is the good news)
Ok. Finally got a chance now that the Holidays are over and visitors are gone, to tackle this “fix”.
Good news and bad news. I jacked up the car, took the old filter off and the LN adapter came off with it, which means I had to put the filter in a vise and use a modified spanner wrench to get the LN adaptor off.
Once I got it off, reinstalled it using the spec 18 ft lbs of torque. Lubed (with the oil) the seals on the adaptor and the new K&N filter. Cleaned the area fairly well with degreaser so I can tell where any new oil might be coming from if there is an issue.
Drove around yesterday and today there is another pile of oil on the floor.
Totally frustrated tonight I jacked it back up. The good news is that it appears to be leaking from either between the oil filter and the adaptor OR the adapter and the car. My guess is that it is the adaptor and the car since, when I went to twist it on, even though there was a seal, it didn’t feel like there was anything there, no resistance or tightness. Here are the pics that show that there is only oil coming out above the filter and not the engine (which is the good news)
now what? 🤔
sorry pics didn’t upload as well as I thought, but you get the idea.
Did you reinstall the same filter or a new one? Just this weekend I did an oil change on my pickup and use K&N filters on all of my vehicles as they do pretty well in tests and I like the convenience of the bottom nut for wrenching it on and off. For the first time ever, my filter looked like yours with oil running down the side of the filter. The truck doesn't have a sandwich adapter like the 997 does, so I'm wondering if the seals on some of these K&N filters might have an issue. I never had this occur with the previous Mobil 1 filters. Before scrapping the LN adapter or trying a different one, I'd try a Mobil 1 M1-107 filter or the Napa Gold equivalent to see if maybe it's an issue with the filter. You can remove the filter and only lose the oil that's in it. When I installed the new K&N onto my truck, I added an extra 1/4 turn to see if that helps seal it up better.
Seals and threads on the spin-on filters can be bad from the get go, many years ago when I raced motorcycles there was a manufacturer that made spin-on oil filters for bikes that had bad threads and seals from the factory lots, such that they kept blowing off the bikes at race speeds and injured people in the oil spill crash. Not saying this is your problem, but it might be.
Did you reinstall the same filter or a new one? Just this weekend I did an oil change on my pickup and use K&N filters on all of my vehicles as they do pretty well in tests and I like the convenience of the bottom nut for wrenching it on and off. For the first time ever, my filter looked like yours with oil running down the side of the filter. The truck doesn't have a sandwich adapter like the 997 does, so I'm wondering if the seals on some of these K&N filters might have an issue. I never had this occur with the previous Mobil 1 filters. Before scrapping the LN adapter or trying a different one, I'd try a Mobil 1 M1-107 filter or the Napa Gold equivalent to see if maybe it's an issue with the filter. You can remove the filter and only lose the oil that's in it. When I installed the new K&N onto my truck, I added an extra 1/4 turn to see if that helps seal it up better.
this is a brand new KN filter. The previous one was the Nappa gold in the original pics.
LN offered to replace that unit. I would do that. Keep eliminating problem areas one at a time. Also, clearly that adapter was not fully seated originally as you discovered, but the second time the filter came off without the adapter. Maybe that adapter is somehow not true/flat at the sealing point or the o-ring is counter-sunk too much somehow and therefore not making a good seal. Seems easy enough to swap in a new one.
LN offered to replace that unit. I would do that. Keep eliminating problem areas one at a time. Also, clearly that adapter was not fully seated originally as you discovered, but the second time the filter came off without the adapter. Maybe that adapter is somehow not true/flat at the sealing point or the o-ring is counter-sunk too much somehow and therefore not making a good seal. Seems easy enough to swap in a new one.
Ya. I didn’t want them to have to go that route until I determined that most likely is the culprit, which it appears to be. I’ll have to contact them.
Originally Posted by jhbrennan
Even though you've determined that the spin-on adaptor/filter are leaking, have you tried re-installing the OEM filter canister to see if that is dry?
No. It didn’t leak before I installed the adaptor and I don’t have a new filter for the OEM, so I don’t want to throw it back on there with the old, dirty filter. But since it didn’t leak before I switched them out, It appears that the OEM one is fine. I have a feeling it is the seal on the adapter. Like I mentioned, there was absolutely no resistance or “snug” feeling when putting the adapter on, which makes me think it isn’t being properly sealed.
11-17-2017, 02:20 PM
