German888

Rather than Hijack recent rebuild threads which are dealing with preemptive or mandatory rebuilds I thought I would launch a new one designed to open a discussion around the value proposition of each option.

Hoping this becomes a valuable resource that deals with specific shortcomings of the .1 platform and how well the current high level rebuilds overcome them. With any luck we'll have Baz, Jake and other experts weighing in...

Assumption:
Rebuild is performed by a reputable builder such as Hartech, Flat 6 etc... and includes overbore conversion with stand alone wet type cylinders, aftermarket pistons/rods, rebuilt heads. Full meal deal!

Question 1:
Does a fully rebuilt M/96, M/97 (overbore conversion ie 3.6/3.8 - 4.0) from a reputable builder addressing all the inherent issues offer a comparable value proposition as a .2 with what most experts agree has a superior 9A1 engine architecture?

Question 2:
Will the rebuilt M/96-7 offer comparable durability and reliability as the newer 9A1 platform?

Question 3:
Will the rebuilt M/96, M/97 command a similar market value as the .2?

Let the fun begin!

Spiffyjiff

for ref i have raby 4.0.

#1 and #3 are related. rebuild may be comparable value but only to YOU. a rebuild is only good if you love the car (which i have since mile 1), plan to keep it (which i do), plan to be buried in it (TBD). you are going to lose $ on any resale. 9A1 will get you a much better motor but still might have issues of its own. before i made my decision to rebuild, the only alternative i would entertain was of the GT3 flavor, because i'm too attached to my damn car to even think seriously about any other version. and since i couldnt afford what i really wanted, and prob never will be able to, i decided to rebuild my baby. (wow, that sounds pathetic. )

#2) IMO no. even reputable builders can't work miracles. even an untouched 9A1 is more durable than rebuilt and hardened M engine. it's basically what porsche does (ostensibly?) - they improve and (attempt to) design out the weaknesses of the prev versions. but of course, the builders are much more familiar with the weaknesses of each so maybe they have differing opinion.

good luck. if you rebuild, keep updating the thread with progress!

Ben Z

I'm not acquainted with Hartech's rebuild protocols but I don't feel like a Flat6 (or the RND plus IMS Solution I have in mine) M96/7 is going to be any less durable than a stock 9A1 in a .2 especially as the latter will probably have tens of thousands of miles on it already.

Moneywise, upgrading to a low-mileage, good-condition .2, especially a 6MT, is probably going to cost about the same (assuming the .1's engine has a rebuildable core), and that cost will most likely be eaten by depreciation on the newer car.

The big variable I think is how many miles are on the .1 in question. The metrics are very different between putting one of those remans in a 50K mile .1 vs one with 150K.

kisik

I would agree with Spiffijiff that rebuild engine would carry very small value adder for somebody else. It is like a flaw that has been corrected but many would prefer an opened engine that never been touched. Non-enthusiast would just get "strong engine" and "shift smooth" words in sale ad.
Value wise, let's just say there is $10k difference between comparable 997.1S and 997.2S manual. That is like paying 50% insurance for more "advanced" technology but I would rather stick what I know. Practically the same cars on a road and track. On just last track event I saw two nice 997.2s, one was consuming more then 1qt oil for 2 days and other one having fuel injection problems. Go figure..

Sporty

Great thread. I was thinking these questions as well in regard to a Raby Flat 6 motor. I have a base 05 C2 MT with 27k miles since new that has no issues ( that i know of ) and sings very sweetly between 4-7k. Was thinking about doing a Flat 6 4.0 for some added power, sweetness and to avoid the potential bore scoring, etc down the road. I would dream / think a Flat 6 motor, the MT and being seen as one of the last "visceral" 911's say 10 yrs from now with say 60K miles on it might command about as much as i could get for it today(stock)? Raby motors could hold the same panache as say RUF to the right buyer and also I would think are way more robust than the 9A1? Today I think it would be cheaper to buy a new 997.2S, but who knows what it would be worth 10 yrs from now compared to a Flat 6 997.1 - they could be considered "special" Any no name rebuild would probably have very little added value however. I will alternatively check out the 991.1 and .2 series before i do anything.

cvtbenhogan

Should be a cool thread.

Maybe Jake or Baz can chime in on which would be stronger relability wise, a rebuilt nickie M97 versus a stock 9a1. My gut says the 9a1 is stronger.

I also wish we had some data on the performance of a 4.0.

alexb76

NO to all three, pretty simple actually.

The only reason to rebuild, is IF (1) It's a lot cheaper than buying another one (2) You wanna build a track car... otherwise, get a new car!

Sporty

"My gut says the 9a1 is stronger"
I would be surprised if that's the case, but maybe. For a $25k Raby Flat 6 rebuild - i'd think that all the weaknesses are addressed, otherwise what is so "special" about it and why is there a 6 mo - year long wait list? are these all blown motors that are in line? And aren't the 9a1s subject to scoring as well? Otherwise, the 997.2 or 991 is almost a no brainer vs a preemptive rebuild.

KNS

Raby built engine over a 9A1 every day of the week if I had my choice.

German888

This is beginning to head in the direction I was hoping. Keep it coming...

Petza914

+1. I'd bet a Raby 4.0 has better #s, is more durable, and freer revving than a 9A1. There are probably some hot rod upgrades he could do if someone were so inclined too.

Hella-Buggin'

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 997.2 manual available for only $10k above what you could see your 997.1 manual for. There aren't that many around and unless you want one that's got some history to it, you're looking at more of a $25-30k price gap.

There's no doubt that the .2 is more modern and a much better engine platform. But they still have issues and you'll still buying a used car.

Ive decided to get a rebuilt put in mine when the time comes. I'm not worried about resell value. I'm worried about track durability and longevity. i think flat6 or vision Motorsports and a few others have a good handle on the m96/m97 shortcomings and can provide miles of smiles. I've driven many .2 cars and there's not much difference. Sure, the pasm is slightly more advanced but that can be overcome with a dsc box. Bluetooth, don't care.

Louis de Funes

that's what I would pick as well


if ever something happens to mine this is what I will be doing 4.0L

Sporty

"9A1 will get you a much better motor but still might have issues of its own" "IMO not even reputable builders can't work miracles. even an untouched 9A1 is more durable than rebuilt and hardened M engine."
SpiffyJiff- can you elaborate how you draw this conclusion given that you have a Raby built 4.0? Are you not that impressed with your new motor? have you had issues?

Fined

Question 3; I suppose that depends on who you can attract with the car. If I'd been in the market for a manual transmission car.. a built 4.0 liter 997.1 would be my choice over a base model 997.2