Kevin

I had some time to tear apart a engine that had a severe intermediate shaft noise. This X50 engine has 38K on the clock.



This pump is what most of us call the GT3 dual sump/pickup oil pump.





Looking at the top of the large sump pickup> you can see the accumulation of aluminum and copper bearing material





The gears shown are from the "pressure" stage of the oil pump, you will see the scoring and looking closer you can actually see aluminum between the gear webs.



The metal heavily scored the oil pump internal casing. This pump is trashed.



The above picture shows one of the IMS beariing shells.

grayman

Seeing this makes me sick. I have an 02 X50 996tt with 37K miles. I'm almost afraid to drive it now. I also have a 2000 boxster s with 47K miles. Two cars with great german engineering???????? Both models are developing a reputation for having IMS bearing issues, even the much vaunted "bulletproof" Metzger engine.

I have owned many inexpensive cars in my day, to include several POS domestic vehicles (1981 Camaro Z28, 84 Mustang GT, 86 Mustang SVO-a four cylinder turbo,88 jeep commanche pickup, Olds Alero, Saturn Vue AWD, Dodge Ram pickup, several Chevy turbodiesel pickups, Olds Aurora, ), several motorhomes (Pace Arrow, Winnabego, Monaco turbo diesel pusher) and several imports (Alfa Romeo Milano, Eagle Talon AWD-another 4 cylinder turbo, 1990 Volkswagon Passat, Honda Accord V6, Volvo S60R-5 cylinder turbo, Land Rover LR3, Subaru Legacy, Subaru Impreza, and of course, a 1988 944 Turbo S).

None of these vehicles ever had any type of engine problems. Not the POS domestics, not the imports, not the motorhomes. Many of these vehicles were driven over 100k miles. Some were well maintained. Some were lucky to get a wash and an oil change once a year.

So what's the deal with the engines in these two fine german cars that were built by a legendary engineering/car company? Do these cars really have poorly engineered and poorly built junk for engines or is it just the internet and some repair shops (I remember seeing an ad for a guy who specializes in M96 engine rebuilds and IMS bearing "upgrade" kits, where the add read sometihng like "tick tick tick boom" and refered to the M96 engine as a "ticking timebomb") making a mountain out of a mole hill? Funny, I dont see this add anymore. He must have gotten a call from some Porsche attorneys

I plan on taking Kevin's advice, switching to Mobil 1 TDT and doing oil changes every 5k miles or less, and I guess driving the cars with my fingers crossed.

deckman

If you're afraid to drive it then you should sell it and get a Japanese car. Either that or get a extended warranty for temporary piece of mind. Better yet avoid forums where there can be a sky is falling mentality.

Kevin

grayman, this is a extreme and rare case. The actual IMS "gear" was loosening due to bolts that had backed out. When things get to this stage the bottom end is REALLY noisy. At idle thru the entire RPM range. Usually at 20K it is night and day vs the "normal" IMS and chain noise.

In all fairness, I think that these engines have "passed" thru all hands.. I would be extremely cautious about the Budget car dealer that has his "dream" Turbo for sale on the one story car ramp for $36,950.00 .

If you look at the oil it is very good, clear and viscous. The owner was trying everything to cure the noise.

This is WHY I am making a campaign for those to increase the oil change interval, and to inspect your oil filters.

jpflip

I always open the oil filter and this year I have found a little amount of metal chip about the size of the end of a ball pen. One of those chips was in bronze the others , about three, were metal particles.... I guess it is coming from the intermediate shaft bearings since it is a bit noisy at idle. Noise was a lot worst when I was using Mobil 0W40 and now a lot better since I am using Castrol Syntec 5W40.... Will see next oil change....

Mikelly

So let me get this right....

This pump probably had 2 year old oil in it, often? Or was it 15K mile oil in it often? And are you implying that the motor probably never was "pre-lubed" after sitting for long periods with the fuse pulled?

Hmmmmm... I'm sure there are some members here who will argue that you're clueless, Kevin... You gotta stop posting facts that contradict with their fiction...

Thanks for your hard efforts in educating those who probably don't appreciate your service...

Mike

grayman

Kevin,

I think you should close up shop on the west coast and open a new place here in Ohio!

Back to the engine in your original post. Do you think it would have eventually suffered a catastrophic failure?

Macster

Easy does it. While you never had any engine problems with the other cars you've owned I can assure you someone did. And I dare say the percentage of those that had problems is close to the percentage that had or will have problems with their Porsche.

As Kevin pointed out the IMS bolts backed out. This is a very very rare occurance. The problem is the car covered so few miles that the warranty expired before the bolts loosened.

My 03 Turbo has covered over 50K miles and runs just fine, just as good as the day I bought it (June last year) with around 10K miles on it.

My 02 Boxster has covered nearly 238K miles and still runs just fine.

Just take it easy. Change the oil/filter regularly and more often (I like and preach 5K mile oil/filter services) and relax and enjoy the car. It is a fine automobile and will give you thousands of miles of good service.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Macster

Not sure what you're getting at but old oil didn't cause the IMS bolts to loosen and no amount of pre-lubing the engine would have kept the bolts tight.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Kevin

Do you see the radial scoring on the IMS bearing shell? If someone wants to Photoshop the bearing with arrows that would be great.. This means that metal has escaped past your oil filter!

If you look at the oil pump, you have 3 ports on the rear of the pump. One for the scavange side and two for the pressure side a inlet and an outlet (high pressure). The scavange pump will pull ALL of the oil and debris and pump it up to the main oil tank. The oil enters the very top of the stainless oil tank. Any metal that is pulled from your engine sump/windage area gets pumped right into the tank.. The oil is drawn from the bottom of the tank where the check valve is.. It enter the engine case and enters the second stage of the oil pump. If you have metal in the oil tank the metal gets passed thru the gearset. You can see this in the pictures> the housing and gears are scored. The oil is pressurized and then run up to the oil filter/oil cooler assy.

grayman, this is a catastrophic failure! A rod failures or oil pump seizure would have happened.

Macster, you aren't getting the point. I have received 12 emails and PM's already from this thread. It torques my a$$ to make a recommendation about watching your oil filter and changing your oil more frequent. Why don't you ask the fellow Rennlisters to openly post there emails and PM's asking me why they are seeing metal in there oil filters.. "Quote" Ball-point metal in stuck found in my filter.

While this failures was from a failing IMS gear> the harmonics could shake the bolts loose! The IMS gear assy have ZERO lock washers on the bolts like on previous 911 engines. PLEASE READ> I can take a picture of at least 5 or 6 engines with WIPED out IMS bearings> some looking worse than what I have posted.

Kevin

IF ANYONE has excessive IMS NOISE.. Please use Mobil 1 5W40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil.. Any other brand has less metal conditioners. The Turbo Diesel Truck does have a special additive that is reducing the noise. Keep an eye on your oil filter and schedule your oil changes around 5K miles. DO NOT KEEP 0W40 of any brand.

Mikelly

Kevin, really, just stop... You're wasting your time with these two... Really...

Mike

Mikelly

Where I'm going with this is simple. I deal with guys every day who are "to smart" for the information being presented to them. Except in my business people die.

Kevin and others have provided tons of useful info that you, and others continue to ignore because you choose to argue it, only to come around to the eventual concession of "If one has been inside the engine and thus the oiling system is without its normal residual oil or if the car/engine has sat for a long time unused (like over winter) pulling the fuse and cranking the engine may be a worthwhile action but for any other time it borders on the excessive/complusive.

Sincerely,

Macster. "

Really? Why not just conceed that he's right in the first place? Dragging threads pages deep just for the sake of arguing, only to in the end come to that conclussion really does cement my previous comments.

Mike

grayman

With these two???? Based on everything I have read from Kevin, I plan on following his recommendations to a T. I got my TT in the spring, and am trying to learn as much as I can. That is why I am on here, asking questions. I am also going to use UMW when I have my ECU reflashed. So if you think I am doubting or questioning Kevin's advice, you are WAAAAY off base. Your hatred for Macster is really eating you up.

We live in America. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We are free to speak our minds and disagree with others. I served in the Marine Corps and sacraficed more than you will ever know so everyone here can enjoy those rights.

You disagree with Macster, that is fine. You need to grow up and stop attacking this guy because you dont agree with him.

Mikelly

Uh, grayman I wasn't referring to you, man...Has to do with my frustration over some of the arguments that have gone on as of late with others... Kevin knows exactly what I'm refering to...And I don't hate anyone here... Just don't agree with the spreading of disinformation to guys like you who are trying to learn... and as to your sacrefices, well congrats and thank you, and I'll accept the same from you for my service as well...
Mike