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I currently drive a gtr, and I am considering selling it and getting a 996 or 997.1 (turbo)
Mainly because :
1) I miss driving manual
2) The GTR (if aligned for autocross, which it usually is) eats tires like a 600lb dude with an eating disorder downs pizza.
3) I've done a mild rebuilt on my GTR's transmission (DIY. Some electronics fixes. Some mechanical upgrades), and after seeing what the issues are first hand, I know I'll have to do it again.
The electronics are crap, and it wouldn't be an issue if it were a manual.
- Solenoids [magnetically] attract fine metal particles (think talcum powder) and get dirty and sticky inside (inevitable).
- Valve body micro filters clog with the same metal talcum powder stuff too (inevitable).
- Pressure sensors seem to have a limited life span (I'll see if the new Dodson sensors live longer).
Only a matter of time till it needs another disassembly and clean - and I just don't feel like it. Especially when none of my other (manual) cars have to deal with this. I dread automatic/automated transmissions. Just another malfunction/CEL waiting to happen.
The bright side with the GTR is that the engine is problem free, the transmission has excellent aftermarket support, transmission is mechanically pretty good, and the rear subframe [and the crap that goes with it] goes in/out easier than a clutch job on some cars.
...
SO. There it is. I'm looking at a 996 or 997.1 turbo.
I hear good things about the engine.
I hear FBO makes a fun level of power.
I'll be taking care of it myself, so I'm wondering what the mechanical level of effort is like.
The access looks kinda bad. Is the car basically 'engine out' for anything I have to do?
What are the desirable years to look for? (for mechanical/reliability/durability/design reasons - not 'cool feature' reasons)
Any 'tells' for cars that need avoiding? A short check list of the 'usual suspects'?
(eg. NB miata = Check front frame rails and rockers for bubbled paint (rust). Check front crank seal for leaks. etc.)
I'm mostly looking at track oriented used cars. Preferably still with AWD (or at least the AWD hardware on hand for me to re-install). Anything to look out for specifically in that group?
Note : This is research. I'm not 100% set on selling my GTR. But the thought is dwelling in my head, and the 911 checks most of my boxes as an alternative.
Thanks
-scheherazade
Last edited by scheherazade; 09-28-2017 at 12:58 PM.
The difference for me has gone from front engine cars to a rear engine, the flat 6 is tucked in there quite nicely, so certain things are very tight fits and can cause you to break some of the plastic pieces/connectors that have weathered. Basic maintenance like brakes, oil, changing out exhaust, etc, are simple as they come, but once you start digging into deeper rooted engine issues, I'll be going to an Indy. I'm confident in my abilities as I've always done my own vehicle work, but some things I'll leave to those that have submerged themselves in the specifics.
AWD will put you in C4 and C4S variants, there's always 996's for sale but I've never watched much on the C4 market since I was looking for a C2 RWD.
Really the most to look out for is previous maintenance records and have a PPI done, those are about as much you can do to cover your ***. Then if you read up on some of the guys who track that suffer oil starvation in particular scenarios. Things to look out for most are leery of is IMSB (single vs dual row limiting you to certain model years, 99-00, 00-01 were crossover years), AOS, and RMS tends to leak a bit over time.
A 996TT or 997TT is going to cost more to run than a GTR, and it won't be very close. 911s chew up rear tires with the r/r layout & camber in back. Your best bet might be to trade for a newer GTR with a more durable tranny. Or a Porsche still under warranty.
Want to track? Good idea to weld coolant pipes at $3,500
Daily drive? Three radiators & 10-15yo coolant piping that's waiting for a refresh
Tranny issues? 996TT has 2nd gear popout feature that can require a refresh
Motor need rework? A rebuild costs well into five figures
A 996TT or 997TT is going to cost more to run than a GTR, and it won't be very close.
how do you know? have you owned either?
GTRs are in no way cheap to maintain. In 2.5 years, my 997tt has needed about 700 in repairs (two radiators) and its by no means coddled. Both can be shockingly expensive if something breaks, but they tend to be pretty solid cars.
GTRs are in no way cheap to maintain. In 2.5 years, my 997tt has needed about 700 in repairs (two radiators) and its by no means coddled. Both can be shockingly expensive if something breaks, but they tend to be pretty solid cars.
Anecdotes are fun for playing with yourself, but they don't do much good for others.
GTR ownership costs < water-cooled 911TT ownership costs, especially after the 10-year mark
Personally I'd say it's hard to compare the two. 996TT owners don't suffer the same issues that the M96 does and in general seems to be a much more trackable motor. I would imagine engine work on a TT is more crammed than an N/A naturally.
Like Tony said, 996s are 10+ year old cars. A 997T might be a better alternative just from a wearable part aspect. They are Porsche's and if it's going on the track you'll eat through tires and will have issues. Personally I would imagine maintenance on the GTR to be less costly, DEPENDING on what needs to be done. There are a million what if's that can happen in either car resulting in expensive repair bills, neither are cheap cars to begin with.
thats a 2011 911, non turbo it looks like. It also has things like financing and fuel thrown in.
While i can only speak for certainty about my self, I follow the turbo forums quite closely, and aside from a few known, and not terribly common, gotchas, the cars are solid. The OP said he can do his own work, so things like spark plugs on a 7TT, which is expensive to do at a shop, can be done for $60 bux.
Fwiw, just the fluid for the GTR is like $70 a liter. It has some special parts that get the GTR tax.
A 996TT or 997TT is going to cost more to run than a GTR, and it won't be very close. 911s chew up rear tires with the r/r layout & camber in back. Your best bet might be to trade for a newer GTR with a more durable tranny. Or a Porsche still under warranty.
Want to track? Good idea to weld coolant pipes at $3,500
Daily drive? Three radiators & 10-15yo coolant piping that's waiting for a refresh
Tranny issues? 996TT has 2nd gear popout feature that can require a refresh
Motor need rework? A rebuild costs well into five figures
Regarding a new GTR, I think it would be prudent to give you a run down of old vs new, regarding mechanical changes/ common and uncommon issues.
-------------------------
- The FWD shaft splines were lengthened by around 2 or 3 mm (circa 2010 IIRC) to prevent circlip/spline failure (which in itself is rare, but does happen).
I installed a front gear lock in my transmission, so in theory I don't need to worry about that.
- Early cars, some had clutch piston seals that were defective. Those were tracked down to a bad mold in an early mfg run. If you have an early model with still good seals, odds are you're not one of the bad batch.
I should be ok there.
- Selector pistons now come with shim clips pre-installed (AFAIK) to prevent piston rotation where it engages the fork.
I did the clip TSB myself, so I now have those too.
- Factory welded clutch baskets can fail at the weld. New transmissions still use these.
I installed billet clutch baskets.
- New trans software.
I could flash the latest TCM, and have the latest logic. However, that wouldn't fix the worst part of the GR6 : It lugs in auto mode, and it hesitates on downshifting. I'd sooner run a custom flash to alter the gear change logic, which is something the new ones could also benefit from.
- New intakes in 2012+.
A few hundred bucks. I could swap those in an afternoon.
If I cared that bad, I'd run -3.5 and -2.X camber, which would matter more anyways.
- Different shock/spring tuning.
They are all over the place with this. Some years went high spring rates, others went low, and it hasn't been a steady rise or fall over time. Nissan is rather schizophrenic in that regard.
- Front drive transfer clutch can "lose its *****". Clutch pack is operated by two plates with channels cut into them facing each other. Metal ***** glide in these channels. When the plates twist, the ***** ride up the channels spreading the plates. This puts pressure on the clutch pack. If the clutch pack wears enough, the gap between the plates can get too big, and the ***** fall out of their channels. This would perma-sieze the clutch 'on'. If you go into a hard turn, this can torque and break the FWD output shaft inside the trans. All years are susceptible. Although it's not an issue unless your FWD clutch is worn the heck out (effectively rare. If your FWD clutch is that bad, you'd likely have it replaced long ago.).
New trans doesn't address this. Regardless, I installed a ring retainer in my FWD clutch, so I don't have to worry about it, my ***** can't drop (ba-dum tss)..
- Stereo / HVAC twist ***** go bad.
30 minute job with contact cleaner to get them working again. AFAIK all years can develop 'crazy ****' (no matter which way you turn it, it will make random changes).
- Stuck trans solenoids / bad pressure sensors
Seems to be part of the GR6 nature. Just wait for it.
-------------------------
Keeping the car has its benefits. I've had it just about all its life (bought with around 1000 miles on the clock). I don't have to worry about 'what it's been through'.
I also got it back when they were much more affordable. And my money paid is surprisingly close to what I'd get if I sold it.
I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but its quite liberating when the warranty is out. I'm free to do things to it that would have otherwise voided the warranty. Nothing to lose I guess.
...
Regarding the 911 items :
Coolant pipes I can TIG myself.
Cost of new 911t radiators, etc, is not something I know.
How is the aftermarket? Are there reasonable options, or is the Porsche tax relentless?
Is 2nd gear popout something that develops inevitably given enough time, or is it a defect that is present or not present case by case?
Rebuilding the motor, I'm not sure if it's scary or not. I've seen my father pull a motor in the morning, disassemble it down to a pile of parts, rebuild it, and have it back in and running by that night (no joke). Granted, I'm not him... and it wasn't a Porsche (edit : it was a Ford V8).
Thanks,
-scheherazade
Last edited by scheherazade; 09-28-2017 at 04:38 PM.
I'm wary of those estimates. They tend to be a 'how much did the dealership charge you' estimate.
If you get away from that, the cost breakdown becomes more of :
(% of DIY * cost of parts) + (% of Non-DIY * (cost of parts + cost of labor))
This is where asking experienced people becomes valuable. They know what's worth doing yourself and the associated cost, and they know what isn't worth touching and it's better to pay someone else, and how often either one happens.
I spent $3k on my trans. If I paid someone else to do it, I'd have quadrupled that figure. Same if I had the dealer replace it as a whole unit (which is all the dealer will do).
Thanks,
-scheherazade
Last edited by scheherazade; 09-28-2017 at 04:35 PM.
Personally I'd say it's hard to compare the two. 996TT owners don't suffer the same issues that the M96 does and in general seems to be a much more trackable motor. I would imagine engine work on a TT is more crammed than an N/A naturally.
Like Tony said, 996s are 10+ year old cars. A 997T might be a better alternative just from a wearable part aspect. They are Porsche's and if it's going on the track you'll eat through tires and will have issues. Personally I would imagine maintenance on the GTR to be less costly, DEPENDING on what needs to be done. There are a million what if's that can happen in either car resulting in expensive repair bills, neither are cheap cars to begin with.
Are there are other cars that stick out to you?
I guess so. I've had golden cars that will not break no matter what. And others that I can't fix one thing without finding two more.
So much of this is luck of the draw.
I realize that a 10 year old 996 sounds like a gamble. The 996T motor reputation is very high, which has me thinking that it's a safe bet. Am I falling for hype?
My ideal car is this :
- Rear biased AWD (ideally 50/50 off the line, and after that 100% rear). RWD is too surface condition sensitive, personal preference.
- Manual 5/6/whatever speed
- 2 door
- Light
- Low
- Small dimensions
- Plenty of wheel well for rubber
- Factory anti-dive and anti-roll
- Factory flat underbody (I've made my own, but I'd rather not)
- Power doors/windows/AC
- Standard plug in head unit (no proprietary dealer-only mess)
- No infotainment
- No touch screen interactions of any kind. ***** only.
- ABS
- No power steering + light enough to not matter
- 0-60 quicker than 3.5. Ideally under 3.
- MPG, more is better, but really it's whatever.
- Quieter exhaust is better. I prefer not to draw attention if I get on it. Nothing good can come from attention.
Realistically, nothing meets my perfect car list.
Regarding what crosses my mind, it's a list that would likely sound stupid unless you're a certain kind of person.
(This isn't a troll list. I honestly just like toy cars.)
- 911t
- C5 with the body shell hacked off monster-kart style
- C7 grandsport with a blower
- Lotus 7 replica
- Lotus Elise + turbo
- FFR cobra
- SLC coupe
- Wait a few years and get an R34 (I would have gotten the 34 over the 35 in a heartbeat)
- LS swapped RX7
- Monster miata
- Evo 9 and build it to 750 or so
- Parts imported BAC mono built as a kit/custom car (A man can dream...)
- Tesla S (not my cup of tea, but the silent bonkers 0-60 sounds like a fun trick).
I just want something that _I_ think is cool, to have fun driving (and spend less time fixing).
Thanks,
-scheherazade
Last edited by scheherazade; 09-28-2017 at 04:59 PM.
Take this for what it's worth (not a ton because I don't and have not owned either a 996TT, 997TT or GTR), but at the end of the day, if buying a car as a track toy, i'd buy the newest car you can afford regardless of marque.
As was said earlier in this thread, 996TT cars are 10-15 years old at this point, so many wear items will need replacing on any car... a couple of track days will expedite these needs.
I have a 996 C4S and my brother owns a GTR (and a Pcar) and neither him nor I track any of them. Having said that, the GTR seems a good bit less costly on maintenance for the simple fact that I'm dealing with a car with parts that are 14 years old and he's dealing with a GTR with parts that are 4 years old. Guess which one is needier.
If a dealer were to maintain, I'd say the average repair is a toss up. If your diy'ing all repairs, the 996TT will likely have the edge on parts costs. Thing is, you'll be making a lot more online orders to keep a 14 year-old Pcar in top nick.
As an aside, you might get a better response if you post in the Turbo section as this is NA section. Best of luck in your hunt, they're both great cars for VERY different reasons.
911T could certainly scratch that itch. You sound more mechanically skilled than me and I've managed to trim a sizeable chunk from maintenance costs with DIY work. The 996/997 platforms are relatively DIY-friendly and you can find a lot of parts (at least on the n/a cars) for a fraction of the dealership price if you search by part numbers. There is a 996/997 Turbo forum that can help more than this one (the N/A forum).
It looks like a 500whp, 2400lb air-cooled turbo might even make the cut
09-28-2017, 12:08 PM
996 engine/transmission work level of effort
