Introduction and story
08-19-2013, 11:01 PM
#1
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Introduction and story
Hi All,
I have a little (and somewhat embarrassing) story to share - and yes 'I should have known better'. I have a new-to-me 2004 GT3 - and here is the story:
The “How Not To Buy a Car For Car Guys” guide with a real world example
Well, being a certifiable ‘Car Guy’ as shown by scarred knuckles, too many tools, a seat in the garage so you can sit down and be comfortable while you work, and worst of all - cars for different situations – track cars, trucks (to haul the track car and parts for the track car), daily drivers – the nice and not so nice type, I have been going through quite a learning experience of the embarrassing kind.
After many years of exploring new ways to exceed the design envelope of my STi track car, and with the encouragement of my significantly better ¾, I decided to replace my not-so-trusty track car with something a bit more dependable. The short list was Corvette Z06, Boss 302 Mustang, Porsche GT3, built Porsche 914-6 and perhaps something like an Ariel Atom. After a number of conversations we decided that the GT3 was the most appealing because it was fast and reliable (pretty much like all the others on the list, but it was a Porsche, and there were no good 914’s to be found easily….).
In order to make the ‘event of the season’ – a pilgrimage the PCA-NER region does every year to Le Circuit Mount Tremblant (LCMT) and Calabogie in Ontario, Canada, for 3 days at each track with good music, good driving and great folks. I was going to need to act quickly, since my not-so-trusty STi had once again destroyed its far too expensive exhaust. Quickly in this case was about 2 ½ weeks.
I started looking and asking in ever-widening circles,: folks I knew, local mechanics, then I graduated to Rennlist, cars.com, autotrader.com, then moved on to eBay. Not very many 2004-2005 GT3’s available, but eBay finally proved to be the answer (although now I think I might have been asking the wrong question…)
I got in touch with the listing agent from an eBay ad for a GT3 – who turned out to be a broker and asked for a PPI with a Leak-down test, compression check, and the number of overruns. He agreed and told me the car was on the way to a shop for this, but he told me that I was second in line. This was on Monday AM. He then put me in touch with the owner of the car, a pleasant sounding gentleman racer with too many race cars… I asked him all the questions I thought I should about condition and problems – and I’m told the car was tracked for DE’s only, came with lots of parts, no accidents, taken care of, yada yada yada. I finished off by asking ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?’ ‘Nope’ was the reply… pretty darn good I was thinking… in addition to being a ‘gearhead’ I was also one o’ them GEEKS, so time to hit Google!
I did my Googling and found that my gentleman racer was head of a big (really big) construction company, the broker typically sold cars costing 3x-4x more than this one, found nothing bad or even a little off, and I felt like I was way too small to mess with (AKA screw over). In hind sight, why would I think big money is above screwing the ‘little’ guy – OK so I know computers but not people, I can still see that turnip truck I just fell off…
Later on Monday I hear that the other buyer drops out and it’s mine if I want to spend my summer allowance (just kidding summer and winter for several years). I ask about the PPI and am told the paperwork is not back but is on its way. I ask the name of the shop, and I call them. I neglect to ask about the PPI but ask about the general condition of the car, and it’s ‘generally’ good! I figure a well-taken-care-of track car should be generally good – interesting that you hear what you want to hear.
Tuesday I call and say ‘Let’s do it!!’ (with conviction) They say they have a truck that can get this car from Florida to Massachusetts by Friday that week. I wire the money (hey they won’t screw me, I’m a little guy), they get the car on the truck and Fed-Ex the title. I get the title on Thursday; the car arrives on Friday.
GREAT!!! It’s here. Really, really big truck – My wife takes me and we meet up with the driver, ‘Hey’, he says, ‘Give me a hand, car does not have an E Brake.’ I look and sure enough the E-brake assembly is not there, the cables are just hanging ‘What the Heck’ (or a close facsimile) … We get it off the truck, and the adventure begins 1 week before the car needs to be on the trailer heading north!!!
We load 2 sets of track tires and a spare set of rims into the truck, my wife heads home and I drive off into the sunset – not really, it’s the middle of the day, but it sounds good…
First thing I notice is that it grinds going into 1st (and 5th), and being that turnip truck kinda gearhead guy, I hope that the cables just need adjustment. I drive for ~1 hour and notice the voltmeter hovering about 11volts – not really good since it should be ~13 volts and not DROPPING… I get the car home, put a charger on it and find the alternator is not charging – I STILL don’t understand how Porsche can charge $1400 for a lousy alternator, or how a rebuilt one can cost $450…
I put the car on the lift and start looking around and find most of the water hoses are ready to fall off. I fix them and decide I need to throw (actually more like burn) money at the problem and bring the car to a very good local Porsche shop. I also take a moment to admire the shiny heads (Hint: the heads are a LOT shinier that the rest of the motor). Now my education starts.
I get home, call the shop in Florida that was to do the PPI and ask about it. ‘What PPI?’, they reply, ‘Nobody asked for a PPI’ – RUT-ROW, this is not good I think!
The local shop calls back and tells me that the shifter cables do need adjusting, but the transmission is indeed in need of ‘refreshing’ (gotta love that term, sounds so inexpensive), ‘Oh, by the way’, the shopkeep says, ‘one of those really, really nice forged magnesium wheels is cracked’.
Time to take stock:
• Car has shiny heads
• Transmission needs to be refreshed
• Down to one set of rims
• Car needs an alternator
• They lied about the PPI
• And let’s not forget that little question I asked: ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?
Time to call be the Florida shop and ask about those shiny heads – turns out the previous owner did the money-shift thing – pretty much when ya try to go from 5th gear to 3rd and in your enthusiasm hit 1st. The motor makes a noise sorta like 200,000 loose dimes hitting the floor all at once, which is kinda interesting because if you pick up those dimes you might be able to pay to fix the now-very-quiet-motor. Time to call the previous owner: ‘Oh yeah, I “zinged” the motor, I guess I forgot to mention it’, ‘What about the transmission?’ I ask. ‘Well, you don’t really need to use 1st gear’ was the reply – I am not kidding about both of these replies.
I finally got the receipts from the Florida shop that did the most recent work on this car and found that the motor had not 1, but 2 close encounters of the money-shift kind. These guys are completely unable to drive a standard (I am being nice here).
I am now officially pissed off and file a complaint with eBay, and get shuffled off to the insurance company, Auction Insurance Agency (AIA), that handles the eBay claims. Round 3 of fun starts.
Now I need to document everything, get estimates, and learn to read the fine print. Turns out that three of these ‘fine print are kinda interesting ( they become a lot more interesting later on):
1) AIA ONLY insures up to $50K
2) If the seller makes a good faith offer that the buyer rejects, Ebay and AIA have fulfilled their end of the bargain and need to do no more. Turns out that ‘good faith’ has its own fine print.
3) AIA ONLY covers Engine, Transmission, Frame, and Title – those ‘silly expensive’ (a euphemism for ‘Why would ANYONE put these on a street car’) rims are a don’t care, along with any other thing like a $1400 alternator
In addition to the documentation stage, I gotta wait ( patiently, which I never do well). My dialog with the broker goes like this:
Me, being my typical demanding self:
“Dear k8collection (name barely changed to protect me)
How would you like to handle this?
• I was informed that the car was not raced; only used for DE’s
• Prior to bidding, I had asked for a pre-purchase inspection, leak down test, and compression test. I followed up with the shop that I was told did the work and they informed me that they were never directed to perform such work.
• I was never informed that the motor suffered from a major event that required rebuilding portions of the motor (let alone two.)
• Per the ad, all original interior parts would come with the car. However, several interior parts were no initially delivered, including the center console, air bag computer, and emergency brake.
• Instead of 2 Recaro seats listed in the ad, there was only 1 - the second seat was an inferior product.
• The alternator did not work.
• One of the forged BBS rims was cracked, rendering it unusable - and the other three without a dance partner - BBS does not sell these any more
• The transmission grinds in 1st and 5th gears, requiring a rebuild”
And their response:
“Ray. Let me be clear with you. As it stands we acted as an intermediary between you and the seller. K8 had no financial involvement in this transaction. It is my opinion that your insistence on pressing the buy it now through eBay was in fact part of a plan to work the system after the fact to your advantage. There is no bill of sale from K8 to you and no financial record between K8 and you. I will be contacting our eBay representative and apprising him of this and disputing the validity of any claim you present. From this point forward any conversation regarding the GT3 will be had between you and the seller. Also because of your tone and present course of action my recommendation to the seller will also be to cease any communication with you.” (name barely changed to protect me)
Well that went well! I wish everyone were this accommodating.
Now back to waiting, which I am learning is worse than I thought.
I hear back from ‘my guy’ at AIA who tells me that the broker/seller wants to buy the car back. Great I think, the foul taste of this transaction will be behind me and I will have cut my losses… All this brings me back to that pesky ‘fine print’; AIA ONLY insures up to $50k, car cost 58K, they would offer $50K, and the seller would offer $51K – all this turns out to be – wait for it – yep a ‘good faith’ offer. If I turn this down, I end up with nothing (except a bad transmission, more trophies for my wall of shame, AND an exciting summer experience to cherish)! With all that going for it, who could resist.
Turns out the ‘my guy’ at AIA really does have my back, and pushed through a settlement that is reasonable and that will cover most of the tranny rebuild – which as we might guess, is not particularly cheap for GT3s.
Stay tuned as our narrator, who really, really likes Click & Clack, and in particular, identifies with “Unencumbered by the Thought Process” gallantly delves into his transmission – or will he cry ‘Uncle’ and bring it to a shop… The saga continues. (Hint: He has been delving…)
I have a little (and somewhat embarrassing) story to share - and yes 'I should have known better'. I have a new-to-me 2004 GT3 - and here is the story:
The “How Not To Buy a Car For Car Guys” guide with a real world example
Well, being a certifiable ‘Car Guy’ as shown by scarred knuckles, too many tools, a seat in the garage so you can sit down and be comfortable while you work, and worst of all - cars for different situations – track cars, trucks (to haul the track car and parts for the track car), daily drivers – the nice and not so nice type, I have been going through quite a learning experience of the embarrassing kind.
After many years of exploring new ways to exceed the design envelope of my STi track car, and with the encouragement of my significantly better ¾, I decided to replace my not-so-trusty track car with something a bit more dependable. The short list was Corvette Z06, Boss 302 Mustang, Porsche GT3, built Porsche 914-6 and perhaps something like an Ariel Atom. After a number of conversations we decided that the GT3 was the most appealing because it was fast and reliable (pretty much like all the others on the list, but it was a Porsche, and there were no good 914’s to be found easily….).
In order to make the ‘event of the season’ – a pilgrimage the PCA-NER region does every year to Le Circuit Mount Tremblant (LCMT) and Calabogie in Ontario, Canada, for 3 days at each track with good music, good driving and great folks. I was going to need to act quickly, since my not-so-trusty STi had once again destroyed its far too expensive exhaust. Quickly in this case was about 2 ½ weeks.
I started looking and asking in ever-widening circles,: folks I knew, local mechanics, then I graduated to Rennlist, cars.com, autotrader.com, then moved on to eBay. Not very many 2004-2005 GT3’s available, but eBay finally proved to be the answer (although now I think I might have been asking the wrong question…)
I got in touch with the listing agent from an eBay ad for a GT3 – who turned out to be a broker and asked for a PPI with a Leak-down test, compression check, and the number of overruns. He agreed and told me the car was on the way to a shop for this, but he told me that I was second in line. This was on Monday AM. He then put me in touch with the owner of the car, a pleasant sounding gentleman racer with too many race cars… I asked him all the questions I thought I should about condition and problems – and I’m told the car was tracked for DE’s only, came with lots of parts, no accidents, taken care of, yada yada yada. I finished off by asking ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?’ ‘Nope’ was the reply… pretty darn good I was thinking… in addition to being a ‘gearhead’ I was also one o’ them GEEKS, so time to hit Google!
I did my Googling and found that my gentleman racer was head of a big (really big) construction company, the broker typically sold cars costing 3x-4x more than this one, found nothing bad or even a little off, and I felt like I was way too small to mess with (AKA screw over). In hind sight, why would I think big money is above screwing the ‘little’ guy – OK so I know computers but not people, I can still see that turnip truck I just fell off…
Later on Monday I hear that the other buyer drops out and it’s mine if I want to spend my summer allowance (just kidding summer and winter for several years). I ask about the PPI and am told the paperwork is not back but is on its way. I ask the name of the shop, and I call them. I neglect to ask about the PPI but ask about the general condition of the car, and it’s ‘generally’ good! I figure a well-taken-care-of track car should be generally good – interesting that you hear what you want to hear.
Tuesday I call and say ‘Let’s do it!!’ (with conviction) They say they have a truck that can get this car from Florida to Massachusetts by Friday that week. I wire the money (hey they won’t screw me, I’m a little guy), they get the car on the truck and Fed-Ex the title. I get the title on Thursday; the car arrives on Friday.
GREAT!!! It’s here. Really, really big truck – My wife takes me and we meet up with the driver, ‘Hey’, he says, ‘Give me a hand, car does not have an E Brake.’ I look and sure enough the E-brake assembly is not there, the cables are just hanging ‘What the Heck’ (or a close facsimile) … We get it off the truck, and the adventure begins 1 week before the car needs to be on the trailer heading north!!!
We load 2 sets of track tires and a spare set of rims into the truck, my wife heads home and I drive off into the sunset – not really, it’s the middle of the day, but it sounds good…
First thing I notice is that it grinds going into 1st (and 5th), and being that turnip truck kinda gearhead guy, I hope that the cables just need adjustment. I drive for ~1 hour and notice the voltmeter hovering about 11volts – not really good since it should be ~13 volts and not DROPPING… I get the car home, put a charger on it and find the alternator is not charging – I STILL don’t understand how Porsche can charge $1400 for a lousy alternator, or how a rebuilt one can cost $450…
I put the car on the lift and start looking around and find most of the water hoses are ready to fall off. I fix them and decide I need to throw (actually more like burn) money at the problem and bring the car to a very good local Porsche shop. I also take a moment to admire the shiny heads (Hint: the heads are a LOT shinier that the rest of the motor). Now my education starts.
I get home, call the shop in Florida that was to do the PPI and ask about it. ‘What PPI?’, they reply, ‘Nobody asked for a PPI’ – RUT-ROW, this is not good I think!
The local shop calls back and tells me that the shifter cables do need adjusting, but the transmission is indeed in need of ‘refreshing’ (gotta love that term, sounds so inexpensive), ‘Oh, by the way’, the shopkeep says, ‘one of those really, really nice forged magnesium wheels is cracked’.
Time to take stock:
• Car has shiny heads
• Transmission needs to be refreshed
• Down to one set of rims
• Car needs an alternator
• They lied about the PPI
• And let’s not forget that little question I asked: ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?
Time to call be the Florida shop and ask about those shiny heads – turns out the previous owner did the money-shift thing – pretty much when ya try to go from 5th gear to 3rd and in your enthusiasm hit 1st. The motor makes a noise sorta like 200,000 loose dimes hitting the floor all at once, which is kinda interesting because if you pick up those dimes you might be able to pay to fix the now-very-quiet-motor. Time to call the previous owner: ‘Oh yeah, I “zinged” the motor, I guess I forgot to mention it’, ‘What about the transmission?’ I ask. ‘Well, you don’t really need to use 1st gear’ was the reply – I am not kidding about both of these replies.
I finally got the receipts from the Florida shop that did the most recent work on this car and found that the motor had not 1, but 2 close encounters of the money-shift kind. These guys are completely unable to drive a standard (I am being nice here).
I am now officially pissed off and file a complaint with eBay, and get shuffled off to the insurance company, Auction Insurance Agency (AIA), that handles the eBay claims. Round 3 of fun starts.
Now I need to document everything, get estimates, and learn to read the fine print. Turns out that three of these ‘fine print are kinda interesting ( they become a lot more interesting later on):
1) AIA ONLY insures up to $50K
2) If the seller makes a good faith offer that the buyer rejects, Ebay and AIA have fulfilled their end of the bargain and need to do no more. Turns out that ‘good faith’ has its own fine print.
3) AIA ONLY covers Engine, Transmission, Frame, and Title – those ‘silly expensive’ (a euphemism for ‘Why would ANYONE put these on a street car’) rims are a don’t care, along with any other thing like a $1400 alternator
In addition to the documentation stage, I gotta wait ( patiently, which I never do well). My dialog with the broker goes like this:
Me, being my typical demanding self:
“Dear k8collection (name barely changed to protect me)
How would you like to handle this?
• I was informed that the car was not raced; only used for DE’s
• Prior to bidding, I had asked for a pre-purchase inspection, leak down test, and compression test. I followed up with the shop that I was told did the work and they informed me that they were never directed to perform such work.
• I was never informed that the motor suffered from a major event that required rebuilding portions of the motor (let alone two.)
• Per the ad, all original interior parts would come with the car. However, several interior parts were no initially delivered, including the center console, air bag computer, and emergency brake.
• Instead of 2 Recaro seats listed in the ad, there was only 1 - the second seat was an inferior product.
• The alternator did not work.
• One of the forged BBS rims was cracked, rendering it unusable - and the other three without a dance partner - BBS does not sell these any more
• The transmission grinds in 1st and 5th gears, requiring a rebuild”
And their response:
“Ray. Let me be clear with you. As it stands we acted as an intermediary between you and the seller. K8 had no financial involvement in this transaction. It is my opinion that your insistence on pressing the buy it now through eBay was in fact part of a plan to work the system after the fact to your advantage. There is no bill of sale from K8 to you and no financial record between K8 and you. I will be contacting our eBay representative and apprising him of this and disputing the validity of any claim you present. From this point forward any conversation regarding the GT3 will be had between you and the seller. Also because of your tone and present course of action my recommendation to the seller will also be to cease any communication with you.” (name barely changed to protect me)
Well that went well! I wish everyone were this accommodating.
Now back to waiting, which I am learning is worse than I thought.
I hear back from ‘my guy’ at AIA who tells me that the broker/seller wants to buy the car back. Great I think, the foul taste of this transaction will be behind me and I will have cut my losses… All this brings me back to that pesky ‘fine print’; AIA ONLY insures up to $50k, car cost 58K, they would offer $50K, and the seller would offer $51K – all this turns out to be – wait for it – yep a ‘good faith’ offer. If I turn this down, I end up with nothing (except a bad transmission, more trophies for my wall of shame, AND an exciting summer experience to cherish)! With all that going for it, who could resist.
Turns out the ‘my guy’ at AIA really does have my back, and pushed through a settlement that is reasonable and that will cover most of the tranny rebuild – which as we might guess, is not particularly cheap for GT3s.
Stay tuned as our narrator, who really, really likes Click & Clack, and in particular, identifies with “Unencumbered by the Thought Process” gallantly delves into his transmission – or will he cry ‘Uncle’ and bring it to a shop… The saga continues. (Hint: He has been delving…)
Last edited by rbahr; 07-05-2021 at 11:19 PM.
08-20-2013, 12:58 AM
#2
Three Wheelin'
WOW. Quite the learning event, sorry you went through that. Good news for the seller that 2014 GT3 will be PDK, which should help with his shifting issues.
08-20-2013, 01:48 AM
#3
From a fellow ex-STI owner, it could be worse. This could have happened:
to this
then pulled the trigger and also got a 2004 GT3
Just to perfectly slam into and over a fiberglass and steel 8 foot ladder on the freeway. Final bill was over 11.5K.
.
Anyways, I hope this great car treats you better than your prior ride. welcome to the club.
to this
then pulled the trigger and also got a 2004 GT3
Just to perfectly slam into and over a fiberglass and steel 8 foot ladder on the freeway. Final bill was over 11.5K.
.Anyways, I hope this great car treats you better than your prior ride. welcome to the club.
08-20-2013, 07:53 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Especially since there are a LOT of great porsche owners around. In the future, I'd recommend trying to stick with dealing with RLers. Posting a want to buy is a great way to get cars crawling out of the wood work. As always, money talks.
08-20-2013, 08:39 AM
#6
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Wow,
RealGT3 - Good thing that the cage worked... Hopefully your problems are behind you...
KK2 - I had posted - but there are not that many 04/05 GT3's for sale, and like I said - it all seemed to pass the sniff test...
RealGT3 - Good thing that the cage worked... Hopefully your problems are behind you...
KK2 - I had posted - but there are not that many 04/05 GT3's for sale, and like I said - it all seemed to pass the sniff test...
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08-20-2013, 01:11 PM
#8
You lost me when you said a Z06 was a reliable track car.
J/k. In all seriousness, sorry about your situation. Hopefully you can either get it up and running or find the car you really want.
J/k. In all seriousness, sorry about your situation. Hopefully you can either get it up and running or find the car you really want.
08-20-2013, 01:13 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Virginia
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Learned the same lesson after purchasing a members car on here. From now on I will always PPI. Sorry to hear of your story, mine was similar, but not quite as bad
08-20-2013, 08:07 PM
#10
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
WRT Z06 - I don't mean it is a reliable track car out of the box, almost no such thing - can be made pretty good though, and gotta love that torque...
WRT PPI - I had asked for one - it got OBE and they lied to me about it being done - I was told the paperwork was 'on its way' and the shop, when 1st approached, did not say anything bad about the car... Oh Well - just hope that other don't go through similar nonsense...
Ray
WRT PPI - I had asked for one - it got OBE and they lied to me about it being done - I was told the paperwork was 'on its way' and the shop, when 1st approached, did not say anything bad about the car... Oh Well - just hope that other don't go through similar nonsense...
Ray
08-20-2013, 08:58 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
this must be the car you are referring to:
We all know not to buy from this dealership now. You would think with the inventory they have they would stand behind their name and not play games.
We all know not to buy from this dealership now. You would think with the inventory they have they would stand behind their name and not play games.
Last edited by jvmax; 08-21-2013 at 09:14 PM.
08-20-2013, 10:27 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
this must be the car you are referring to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...53ba2f&vxp=mtr
We all know not to buy from this dealership now. You would think with the inventory they have they would stand behind their name and not play games.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...53ba2f&vxp=mtr
We all know not to buy from this dealership now. You would think with the inventory they have they would stand behind their name and not play games.
Did you post here asking for opinions?
08-20-2013, 11:53 PM
#14
Instructor
I bought my 996 GT3 within the last year. Had a PPI done by a dealership in NJ. Some things came out after the delivery of the car that should have been spotted by the PPI.
PPIs should, in my opinion, only be handled by a local indi shop that has nothing to do with any prior history of the car in question.
PPIs should, in my opinion, only be handled by a local indi shop that has nothing to do with any prior history of the car in question.
08-21-2013, 01:17 AM
#15