Larry Cable

[cross posted from the 997 GT3 forum]

Well slightly later than anticipated (due to an intervening week in Cancun) I thought I would summarize the global launch
of Michelin's new PS2 replacement tire, the Super Sport.

Thanks to an innovative experiment in viral product marketing and the recognition of RennList as a community of informed
consumers of their high performance product, I found myself (along with other RL'ers) invited to the global launch of Michelin's
latest tyre in the ultra high performance summer market, the replacement for the venerable PS2; the Pilot Super Sport.

The result of race winning technology from several successful campaigns in the Le Mans 24 hour race, along with the use of
leading edge technologies, and intimate technology development partnerships with Porsche, BMW M division, Ferrari, and Mercedes;
the new Super Sport takes the performance of the PS2 to new, and market leading levels (not just what they say, what I experienced)

A global group of automotive journalists, along with a diverse group of "influencers" from Marque clubs and Internet forums (RL included)
were hosted by Michelin at the Dubai Autodrome to experience 1st hand, the performance characteristics of the new Super Sport fitted to
an array of high performance cars alongside some of their competitors products.

Michelin markets their brand as Performance, with Safety and Longevity. The Super Sport is intended to deliver significantly better performance
than it's predecessor the PS2 approaching that of the current Pilot Cup Sport, but with better wear and wet traction characteristics.
The new PS3 will fill the lower end of the performance envelope and sizes (18" and below) currently filled by the PS2, with the Super Sport
providing the OE homologation fitments for Porsche, Ferrari (in particular the 458 Italia and the 599 GTO), As well as BMW M cars and
Mercedes high performance models starting in 2011 when the tyre will also become available to consumers to retrofit to their cars.

While no sizing or pricing was released we can expect Super Sport in 19" to 22" fitments with Porsche N spec homologation sizes available
mid next year.

The Super Sport is not directional but is asymmetrical; comprising a high performance outside shoulder with a tread pattern similar to that found
on the MPSC (with deeper grooves) comprised of a carbon reinforced compound for maximum dry grip, and a softer compound with a more wet
friendly tread pattern for the remainder of the contact patch for better (wet) grip.

The Super Sport also has a new contact patch profile, reengineered for better dry and wet traction as well as much better heat distribution especially
on the shoulder, improving both the traction, longevity and predictability of response under high performance driving conditions.

This I think explains why none of the Super Sports that I looked at during the day on some of the test mules displayed any of the characteristic wear that I
would expect to see on a heavily abused (track) tire, the shoulders and tread pattern while worn showed none of the typical "lipping" of the front of the tread
blocks etc

The Super Sport is also a lot lighter than its predecessor utilizing a flexible carbon fibre technology 5 times stronger than steel by weight, woven into
a belt that better manages tyre and contact patch distortion under centrifugal forces (twolon I think it was called).

These three innovations; the mixed compounds and tread patterns, contact patch management and l/w construction combine to produce a lighter, longer lasting
tire, with much better response in both the wet and dry.

The event itself consisted of a day of on-track "experiences"; wet and dry grip/braking, a short track dry handling circuit, partner engineering and "open"
tracking.

Each experience pitted the Super Sport against some of its competition:

- Continental 5P
- Dunlop Super Maxx
- Bridgestone Potenza
- Pirelli PZero

The dry braking event comprised an E90 M3 with Super Sports and a competitors tires, undertaking dry straight line braking.

In the straight line braking experience I did not think that the SS differed significantly in superior stopping distance (but it was better according to
the vbox data), however the directional stability was very noticably better with the rear end of the M3 staying put vs some juddering and lateral
motion with the comparison tire.

I was last in the line for the wet handling, and we ran out of time, but those that did experience the comparision stated that the wet lateral grip
on the skidpad was very noticable against the competition. Watching the cars on the skid pad it did appear that the SS was superior in both lateral grip,
predictability and stopping ... no MPSC+ here!

We then moved onto the dry lateral grip experience, here we took PCCB/PDK equiped 997 C2S cars for a couple of laps of a short track.

The handling of the C2S was *significantly* better with the Super Sport than the competitor tire, turn in was more precise, rear end traction
was significantly better, and post apex power on to exit was much superior, the car just felt more planted than the competition and the grip levels
and feedback seemed higher.

After this we were driven around the track by Michelin test pilots in technology partnership/customer cars such as the 997 C2S, C4S, and
Turbo, as well as BMW M machinery, Ferarri and M-B hardware.

The purpose of this is to show that a tires personality is usually matched to that of the target car or marque, and is developed cooperatively
with the car manufacturers test drivers and suspension engineers to create a solution that is still Michelin but is also tailored to the application.

I of course stuck to the 997 in the C2S and Turbo configurations; I found the handling of the C2S with the Super Sport to be excellent, easily
in the class of the Corsas on my GT3, and probably not far off of MPSC+ handling in the dry.

Its unfortunately that they choose not to bring the MPSC+ to the launch for comparison. I questioned Michelin on the future of the MPSC+ in
light of the launch of the Super Sport. Jean-Francoise Beaupere, Product Manager for Sport Tyres @ Michelin, stated that the dry handling of
the Super Sport was comparable to that of the MPSC+, other Michelin Product Managers later confirmed that the MPSC+ *MAY* obtain a
refresh in the next couple of years (probably to align with 991 release I wonder?).

The story on the Turbo (and the M-B AMG black "nutter-b*stard" mobile) was I think less compelling, I felt that the BHP&ft/lbs these cars
could deliver really punished the Super Sport at the front, if anything the amazing thing was the degree of punishment it could endure while
still performing well. I think the new carbon compound and heat mgmt must have helped here also. It certainly convinced me that I dont want
to ever track a turbo or some insane BHP M-B black mobile myself ... GT3 Uber Alles!

It is clear to me now that N-spec tires are significantly different than their non homologation brethern, its obvious that Michelin and Porsche
spend a lot of seat time and R&D to ensure that the N-spec rubber behaves as it should as part of the 911s suspension etc ...

We then moved onto the "supercars" and the "open" lapping (lead-follow).

Michelin had acquired a Gumpert, Koenigsegg, MB SLS, 458 Italia, and MB AMB Black serier monster ...

I went for a lap the in M-B AMG Black monster ... all bhp and little else to commend it other than the superb piloting of the car by the Michelin
test pilot.

We closed the day with some lead-follow lapping in an assortment of cars, 997 C2S PCCB+PDK (which I liked), E90 M3, R8 V10, 997 TT, C4S,
M-B something or other, Lambos ...

I was boring and stuck to the 911s which I liked with the Super Sports fitted so I threw it around the track for a few laps as the sun set on Dubai.

All in all, I think that Michelin have moved the game up with these tires as compared to pretty much everything else out there in the market.

I think the Super Sport on a GT3 (when the N spec and sizes become available) will be a great solution, especially for those who anticipate wet
weather, to replace Corsas and even the MPSC+ itself.

I would have liked to do a side by side comparison of the Super Sport with the MPSC+, Michelin hinted that the MPSC+ being a "track" tire might
be a little better in the dry than the Super Sport, however for a wet/street/track combination I doubt there is anything to touch the Super Sport.

I will certainly replace my Corsas with them when the time comes, and I am not getting a free/cheap set for saying so ... so I will be putting my
pennies and GT3 where my mouth is!

I have attached some personal and promo pictures from the event below for your enjoyment!

- Larry

911SLOW

Why you think that we 6ers don't read the 7 forum Mr. Cable? We are not afraid of your fancy newer GT3's. : )


Larry I would like that you insert the 7's original thread link here so that we have all posts together with the other two threads about the PSS’s so to put some pressure in your French friends to produce 18"s.
What say you my Scottish RL friend? : )

Larry Cable

my pleasure...

http://<br /> https://rennlist.com/...-in-dubai.html

p.s
I count myself as a "fallen" 6'er ...

FFaust

So that's how you ended up there
It's easy to think that we are just speaking amongst ourselves here, but I guess that the whole world is potentially watching.

Anyway, thanks for your efforts and contributions on the matter Larry.

As you said, it's too bad that they did not include the MPSC in the group of "competitors". That really is where this new tire seems to be aimed.

So I guess that we still don't know for sure if the MPSS is a replacement for the MPSC or an additional tire line. Or if the SS would be an acceptable replacement for the Cups as mostly dry, track-only tires. I love my cups and they talk to me, I wonder if the SS would be as good?

Larry Cable

Having gone through the launch and some of the discussion afterwards its clear to me that the Super Sport is not intended (as of now or for the forseeable future) as a replacement for the MPSC+ which will continue "as is" for some time to come.

It really is intended to replace the "high end" application of the PS2 and raise the performance bar on those applications (458, 599, 997 Turbo, koenigsegg, gumpert etc etc) while also separating it from the OE applications of the PS3 on smaller diameters less exotic applications. I think the market segment it is aimed at is defined by the competitors tyres they selected in the comparisons.

So they are really trying to spilt the PS2 market in two with the SS and the PS3.

The Super Sport is not a DOT legal track tyre like the MPSC+ but it could "double" for it in a hybrid road/track/wet application. Its another (really great) Ultra High Performance Summer tyre in the tirerack parlance...

Michelin claims its dry traction characteristics are comparable with the MPSC+ so perhaps it could both double as and eventually even potentially "replace" the MPSC+ if Michelin decide to discontinue the MPSC+ in the future.

I think we as a community of MPSC+ users have an opportunity to express our interest or otherwise in the continuity/evolution of the of the MPSC+ ...

But it would be great to do a back-to-back against the SS and the MPSC+ ...

Maybe if uncle sam doesn't take all my pennies next tax season I'll purchase a couple of sets and do something on YouTube!

911SLOW

Larry did you drive the PS3s in the dry. If not please do and the next one from Michelin that implies that they are the replacement of the PS2's will probably get a slap from you and 20 days of probation in the Chateau d'If. : )

Larry Cable

just to clarify there were NO PS3's present at this event (actually there were no PS2's either) it was purely the Super Sport and its competitors ...

PS3s are I believe intended to "replace" the smaller/lower performace OE applications of the PS2 ... cant comment on their relative capabilities ...

FFaust

Thanks for clarifying Larry. It makes perfect sense when looked at it from the perspective of "splitting the existing PS2 market".

However, the following statement does complicate the issue on Michelin's part:

It effectively renders the MPSC redundant, and will force Mich to either drop it, as you said, or improve its performance even more to distance/differentiate it from the MPSS.

IOW, with the stated performance of the MPSS, why would anyone still want to purchase the MPSC? Marginal dry superiority v. demonstrated wet and wear benefits.

Larry Cable

I agree; however I wonder if there is some balkanisation of opinion regarding the relative performance of the SS vs. the MPSC+ at Michelin?

Another opinion I heard was that an N-spec MPSC+ application still has advantages over the SS on a car like the GT3 & RS ...

Only way to tell would be to put the two back-to-back.

I do agree however that the performance of the new SS does put the MPSC+ under pressure/question, which is why I think Michelin will review the MPSC+ in the near future.

I guess also the Pirelli Trofeo will apply similar pressure to the MPSC+ also, which could require a response from Michelin also.

only time will tell.

GT2rainge

I'm really excited about this tyre in one respect,but i have to say i'm also disappointed in another,why have michelin decided that 18" isn't important anymore for the performance track tyre market,theres a huge gap in the market at present in 18's especially 315/30,with lots with porsches,996 oe sizes and 997 track guys using 18's to fill. Also corvette and ferrari guys,i was told mpsc where coming back in 315 but must have rang the guy who told me 20 times and still no news so i've given up.
Will michelin listen and produce a mpss in all 18" sizes including 315's?as soon there will only be toyo and i personally don't rate the r888 much,can't comment on pirelli trofeo at the moment though,thanks

Kaizu

I agree completely, again.

And Trofeo is much slower than MPSC on dry. Pirelli has lost...And Michelin has almost lost its place as a leading street driveable r-compound tire maker due to narrowing MPSC size range...

I hate this new trend how manufacturers develop their new "sport and track" tires:

They think the ones who buy new Porsches at the dealer will be their target group. Then they ask a questionnaire whether they want a track tire that is good on dry circuit? (...and people answer yes). Then they ask whether they want the tire to be good on a wet circuit? (...and again people obviously answer yes).

The final outcome is that the tire is not a great tire on circuit... Especially with that outcome in mind it cannot be very fast on a dry circuit...

Oh, and the new European tire legislation...Okay...That might be also a reason for this kind of development...

Larry Cable

I am unable to defend Michelin but I do not think they ask the average Porsche purchaser anything and if they do it is not such a simplistic questionarre!

I would argue that the vast majority of Porsche purchasers never even contemplate tak their cars on track as such I don't think they are even interested in or even aware of the requirements and or compromises that need to be made in order to create such a tire.

If you consider pure racing applications, there are eith dry or wet tires any such hybrid is a compromise.

The original MPSC is primarily a dry track tire, which compromises the wet abilities, the later versions of the tire sacrificed pure dry traction for slightly improved wet performance primarily because of customer and manufacturer response to the problems with standing water.

The MPSC is still a great dry track tyre, and the Super Sport is a great ultra high performance street tire with both dry and wet performance, the two should not be confused.

As for the lack of 18" product I can only imagine that any lack of product is based upon sound market and business decisions, we you want more product demand and buy it when it is available let the free operate... Sadly I think the DOT legal track tyres are a niche market and are treated as such by tire manufacturers

Larry Cable

I will see if I can get a response from my contacts at Michelin wrt the 18" MPSC product...

I fear though that this is purely a business decision if you do some guestimate math I think you will see that the market is probably in the 100's or low 1000's rather than 10's of 1000's for such tyres so it's not clear that it makes economic sense to make such tyres in such low volumes ...

Just my $0.02 worth

Larry Cable

Right ho I have spoken to my "source" at Michelin (codename: Deep Tread) ... here is the scoop.

1stly to the issue of availability of the (non N spec, i.e. OE sizes) MPSCs 235/40R18 and 295/30R18 apparently the fronts are "inbound" and the rears are "in stock".

As for larger OE dimension on the rear, Michelin feels that while a larger tyre is possible, its not optimal for the 18", in short I dont think we can expect a 18" larger than 295/30 in the MPSC.

unless we try harder ...

911SLOW

So the 315/30 Cup they were selling us all these years wasn't "optimal" ? : )