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Just got back from some fun at LCMT and it occurred to me that these cars can be FAST :-).
The question is how fast does one get BEFORE going a full cage route? Let's use some east coast tracks that can be fast: At WGI if you are running 2:05's or less should you be considering a cage, is the number 2:07 or 2:00?
What about LCMT is it 2:00, or 2:55 or 2:50?
At these times you are likely seeing 140 or 150 mph or carrying a LOT of speed in the corners. That can hurt if the guy in front of you drops oil or coolant - I caught it in time at LCMT in the back stretch this weekend - a 996 GT3 as you would expect, or you loose a tire...
Now this question is NOT about speed limits and I want to keep it that way, but am interested in the discussion!
I will preface this by saying I haven't always had a cage in my car. I just think its a smart idea to have one, knowing what "could" happen out there. And the 996 gt3 is capable of some very high speeds in corners.
Just got back from some fun at LCMT and it occurred to me that these cars can be FAST :-).
The question is how fast does one get BEFORE going a full cage route? Let's use some east coast tracks that can be fast: At WGI if you are running 2:05's or less should you be considering a cage, is the number 2:07 or 2:00?
What about LCMT is it 2:00, or 2:55 or 2:50?
At these times you are likely seeing 140 or 150 mph or carrying a LOT of speed in the corners. That can hurt if the guy in front of you drops oil or coolant - I caught it in time at LCMT in the back stretch this weekend - a 996 GT3 as you would expect, or you loose a tire...
Now this question is NOT about speed limits and I want to keep it that way, but am interested in the discussion!
Ray
In terms of safety, I think that the argument could be made that any modern porsche is fast enough to warrant a cage. That said, if you are considering putting a full cage in, you are basically talking about converting it from a street car to a race car. Driving a car with a cage with no helmet on can be very dangerous, so you will lose some usability there. It comes down to how much risk you are willing to accept. For me if I am doing DEs, track days, time trials etc. I am comfortable with GT3 Euro seats, roll bar, 6 point harnesses and HANS device.
I understand the risks associated with cages - my previous track toy was a fully caged car.
When you track the car, are you pushing it as hard as you feel you can?
Ray
Typically I wont go 10/10ths in a street car for the very reason you created this thread. When I was racing NASA GTS (In a fully caged / built M3 racecar), I would go as hard as I could, but for DE's, Track Days etc I am usually at 8/10ths or 9/10ths.
For me, the tipping point was being involved in a crash on track, not the speed itself. Simple things such as a mechanical failure, someone dropping fluids in front of you or just a rookie mistake could be very costly in terms of safety. Also if I had to do it over again, I would just buy a car with the cage already installed. Spent wayyy too much money building a caged car out of a street car.
This weekend, I had a GT3 drop fluid (big surprise) in front of me. I only saw it because I saw a lot of steam from the back of his car, I was at the start of a long straight where I build up a head of steam, but nuticed that he was on line, so I slowed down and got off line...
Also if I had to do it over again, I would just buy a car with the cage already installed. Spent wayyy too much money building a caged car out of a street car.
Buying a built race car is WAY cheaper than building one from scratch. Ask me how I know....SMH
Buying a built race car is WAY cheaper than building one from scratch. Ask me how I know....SMH
+1 on building costing a bajillion dollars more.
IMO, the cage is necessary for racing because you INTEND to be in close quarters and the courtesy of passing is not given. DE's are safer and controlled. If it was just a matter of "going fast might result in an accident" then you should have a full cage for the street. People are stupid. Also, GT3 has airbags, so you have another layer of protection. Cages not only give another layer of personal safety, but they suggest/require other things like fire suppression systems, running a race suit including gloves, and almost certainly a cool suit. Race cars have a tendency to catch fire more than street cars, and they are much harder to get out of.
I've driven my GT3 on the track going on 10 years now and, personally, I don't think a cage is necessary. When you race a car, you understand quickly why you have a cage. DEs do have inherent risk, but the environment is much safer to start with.
-td [Note, 996GT3 is faster everywhere on track than my SPB. Every corner, every straight, everywhere...]
It will always be safer to have a full cage, containment seat, etc. I drive my GT3 on the track at 10/10 with a DAS roll bar, harness and HANS. As was said above, any Porsche can be driven fast enough so that a cage would be safer. But frankly, I'd rather drive an SM at 10/10 than a GT3 at 8/10 if those were the only choices. Each of us has to find our comfort zone, and there is no "right" answer. Arguments have been made for wearing a race suit for DEs, and that is indeed safer still. BTW, I am only at 2:05 at WG. At 2:00 flat, I may feel differently.
Half cage, harness and hans for a street car. If you still don’t feel comfortable, it’s time for a cup car. I never thought twice in my GT3 on track with a techquipment bar but I worried ALL the time when driving my Lotus Exige Cup 240 on the street with a full cage.
BTW, I am only at 2:05 at WG. At 2:00 flat, I may feel differently.
You won’t, trust me.
Ray, this is more a personal thing than anything else. If you are thinking these thought then a cage is in your future. For a long time I went quick enough with no roll bar and no harness’ in the car. I didn’t care what others said because I wanted to be able to drive to the track, drive within what I felt were my limits and then drive home. I finally bought a truck and trailer so that I could put a roll bar and harness’ in the car because I finally felt like I was driving fast enough, not because others were telling me to do it.
Now people tell me I need a cage. My car still has airbags and A/C and full interior and while I understand the risks I still just don’t see the need for a full cage in a DE or Time Trial setting. I’m just not going to do it in this car. That’s just me though, I know people that won’t set foot on the track without a suit, halo seat and full cage and I have zero issues with that, but I’m also not going to force my opinion on them.
Do whays right for yoy and don’t think twice about it.
Re: 10/10th driving...that’s one thing I haven’t figured out yet. I can drive what I feel is 9/10ths all day long and go pretty good. When I try to drive 10/10ths I make stupid mistakes and go no quicker it’s just with more drama. I’ll settle for 9/10ths controlably
This is interesting. A big part of what got me thinking about this is what I saw capable in a late model GT3RS in the hands of a novice. I have had the 'this is not what you should be learning on' conversation several times, and got wondering, in part because I want to up the game with better tires...
Rodney, I am a national instructor with PCA, instruct with BMW, and a couple of other organizations...
08-27-2018, 10:23 AM
Question for the track junkies
