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996GT3RS vs 996GT3 suspension comparison

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Old 05-08-2018, 11:55 AM
  #31  
CRex
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Thanks powdrhound--all these years I've assumed the 6RS to be pretty much the same car as the 6.2 GT3 save for the carbon fiber bits, LWFW and cage... and you've set it right!!
Old 05-08-2018, 12:40 PM
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rbahr
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CRex,

The 996 GT3 Rs was the homologation platform for the RSR. Lots of things changed including heads, a few other engine / tranny parts - I had compiled a list some time ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...rs-thread.html

Ray
Old 05-08-2018, 02:09 PM
  #33  
CRex
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Great stuff, thanks!! Cool to know these cars run bits that aren't even in the 6 Cup!

My front suspension's developed a leak and soon I'll be testing how easy (or difficult) it is to source parts for these cars...
Old 05-11-2018, 10:33 AM
  #34  
kgorman
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Great thread.. thx for sharing. I am also very worried about availability of parts going forward.
Old 05-11-2018, 10:49 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by kgorman
Great thread.. thx for sharing. I am also very worried about availability of parts going forward.
I have two extra sets of 996GT3/Cup uprights with hubs if anyone is in a bind and needs a set. One pair is virtually brand new with about 6k miles
Old 05-14-2018, 04:05 PM
  #36  
pete95zhn
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Originally Posted by rbahr
Hi Pete,

It should work - just be careful as they were really widening the track on the RSR's

I am using the 996 RSR parts, and they work fine - both uprights and side members

Ray
I did some highly unscientific measurements this afternoon, after recieving my new parts. Compared to 996's (GT3) rear subframe this 997 Cup/R/RSR one (These numbers are very inaccurate, just for giggles/general info!)
-sits 6mm higher in relation to chassis. (But 6mm less than 996 GT3RS LeMans racer)
-upper control arms' attachment points are 5mm (front) and 10mm (rear) higher and some 5mm outwards
-track rod's attachment point is 17mm higher and the bolt is in different angle (front of the bolt is pointing upwards) and there's just one 12 mm hole, no eccentric adjustment.
-LCA's attachment point is 7mm outwards and 10 mm higher than 996's eccentric in it's most inboard position. Again just one 12mm hole, no eccentric adjustment. OTH if 996's LCA is completely pulled out, it'll be 6mm more out, ie 13mm out (actually slightly less, because of the angle of that eccentric hole) and some 5mm more downwards.

I'll post a pic or two later.
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Power. Lots is good, more is better, too much is just right...

'87 951, RIP
'00 996 C2 L92U AQ / IXAA IXRB IX54 M96/7.xx G96/7.88 M030 M375 M376 M436 M476 M601 M983 ... + 991 GT3 brakes, 997 GT3 sway bars, fully monoball'd suspension, Bilstein Cup Car coilovers, do88 Big Pack ICs. 10 & 12 x 19" BBS CH-R wheels with 265/30 & 325 /30 -19 MPSC2s.



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Old 05-14-2018, 04:14 PM
  #37  
mistermct
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Originally Posted by pete95zhn
I did some highly unscientific measurements this afternoon, after recieving my new parts. Compared to 996's (GT3) rear subframe this 997 Cup/R/RSR one (These numbers are very inaccurate, just for giggles/general info!)
-sits 6mm higher in relation to chassis. (But 6mm less than 996 GT3RS LeMans racer)
-upper control arms' attachment points are 5mm (front) and 10mm (rear) higher and some 5mm outwards
-track rod's attachment point is 17mm higher and the bolt is in different angle (front of the bolt is pointing upwards) and there's just one 12 mm hole, no eccentric adjustment.
-LCA's attachment point is 7mm outwards and 10 mm higher than 996's eccentric in it's most inboard position. Again just one 12mm hole, no eccentric adjustment. OTH if 996's LCA is completely pulled out, it'll be 6mm more out, ie 13mm out (actually slightly less, because of the angle of that eccentric hole) and some 5mm more downwards.

I'll post a pic or two later.
Are you using the 996 GT3 carrier/outboard parts or ?? Interested in what you expect your final parts list / susp build will be? (at least until you decide to change it again)
Old 05-14-2018, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mistermct
Are you using the 996 GT3 carrier/outboard parts or ?? Interested in what you expect your final parts list / susp build will be? (at least until you decide to change it again)


Actually I did plan to do this with uprights next winter, but was forged to change subframes now because the other one broke. So uprights next and then it's done. I promise....not... Still with 996 GT3 uprights and 2-piece LCAs, adjustable upper control arms and track rods.

About that breakage. If someone plans to use LCA inner solid/uniball bushings, be sure to remove eccentrics and install locking plates right away! I did run one summer with eccentrics and they did not hold. So they moved around and apparently ate both brackets and spacer bushings, which become slightly hemispheric. After installing locking plates the large/noticeable movement went away, but they did continue to grind themselves all the time, for three seasons. And I did not remove and replace them at any point, which was a mistake. So now with big rubber the load to LCAs increased, RH uniball moved a bit too much, spacer bushings jammed and snapped RH forward bracket while braking on track. Which was not fun, rather scary actually. Slow point fortunately, I stayed between white lines and no other damage was done.
Old 05-14-2018, 07:52 PM
  #39  
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Hi Pete,

My measurement data for the 996 RSR parts are here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...n-der-gt3.html

Ray
Old 05-15-2018, 03:36 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by rbahr
Hi Pete,

My measurement data for the 996 RSR parts are here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...n-der-gt3.html

Ray
Ray, I'm very aware of your thread, I've studied it many times during long winter nights... Although 996 GT3 / 996 GT3RS / 997 GT3 Cup etc subframes look like similar, there seems to be many small differences and constant evolution. One thing is that installation height, 997 Cup's subframes are between 996 GT3 and RS. Below pics of 997 Cup/R/RSR subframes and differences between 996 GT3 subframe milled to RS specs and aforementioned 997 part.



997 GT3 Cup/R/RSR rear subframes. Solid steel bushings permanently installed.



Above 996, below 997. Subtle changes in details.



Above 997, below 996



Above 997, below 996
Old 05-16-2018, 02:52 AM
  #41  
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Hey Pete,
I have a pair of used 996GT3/Cup rear wheel carriers (side members) if you need a set. Again, I would be very cautious of blindly using Cup/RSR carriers or uprights as they are based on a car running 27.8” rear wheels at super low ride heights.

Last edited by powdrhound; 05-15-2020 at 12:09 AM.
Old 05-16-2018, 08:37 AM
  #42  
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Hi John,

Other than adding compliance, why does the size of tire matter? The ride height is keyed off a mark on the chassis?

Thanks

Ray
Old 05-16-2018, 09:04 AM
  #43  
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Tire OD matter as the taller the tire the 'lower' the suspension needs to be to obtain the same chassis height
Old 05-16-2018, 09:11 AM
  #44  
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I see, thanks.

Ray
Old 05-16-2018, 12:43 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by rbahr
Hi John,

Other than adding compliance, why does the size of tire matter? The ride height is keyed off a mark on the chassis?

Thanks

Ray
Tire size plays a HUGE part in altering the roll center. An RSR runs a 27.8" tall rear tire in conjunction with a 100mm rear ride height which is allowed to go as low as 88mm. That is a 2.6" taller tire than the the stock tire on a 6GT3 which means that you would need to lower the rear ride height a full 1.3" to get the chassis to the same starting point. By doing so, you are drastically lowering the roll centers as a result (due to the change of the inclination of the rear control arms) and creating a bigger spread between the CG and the roll center, which is not good. To correct for this, the pick up points on the RSR wheel carriers are lowered another 1/2" or so (compared to the 6GT3RS) and the RSR side member pick up points are raised by a similar amount. This is all done to raise the roll centers back up to get the geometry to an optimal point. Now, take into account that the RSR runs yet another 1" - 1.5" lower ride height than the 6GT3 which further necessitates the raising of the roll centers. When you use the RSR components on a street car with it's small tires and high ride height, you far from optimum geometry wise. To correct, you would need to increase the rear tire diameter as much as practical and lower the car as much as possible. Due to the constraints of the street ABS, wheel well limitation and other factors, you are very limited with what you can do on a street GT3.

One thing I would do as a starting point if trying to optimize a suspension is to take a look at an RSR or a Cup car and carefully measure the degrees of inclination/declination of both the front and rear LCAs, thrust arms and upper control arms at static ride height with weight on wheels. Best way to do this is on an elevated alignment rack. If one is not looking to do a highly sprung race set up, then looking at these items on the late generation 997GT3s is also beneficial if you are looking to get a starting point of a dual purpose track/street car that runs similar ride heights to our cars. I would then shoot for those numbers as Porsche spent a lot of R&D getting the suspensions dialed in on the late gen GT cars like the 3.8RS or the 4.0.

Last edited by powdrhound; 05-17-2018 at 01:49 AM.


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