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Fuming in my own juices: Coolant Pipes

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Old 01-19-2018, 12:43 AM
  #31
mooty
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^ do NOT do 4.0 R and P
if you want to touch the gearbox then do it right. regear it.
i had 4.0 RP, i solves the current problem with another problem.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:53 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
If I lived in SoCal, I'd try to bribe cgfen (above) to help me with a DIY....but that's not going to work. I have two Master Welders in the San Luis Obispo area, one of which will be welding up my pipes. I can't believe the number of people (non-Rennlisters) that have told me it's a "watch and wait" project. That one video of the car dumping it's coolant on the track, and the carnage that followed, that sealed the deal for me.
martin you know better. only talk to drivers who have crashed, hit walls, flipped their cars on track. b/c we do not wait and see. until then, i was also "wait and see" group. you hit a few object hard, you dont wait anymore.


Originally Posted by Rootwitch View Post
I actually have access to a 4.0 ring and pinion set and was thinking about it.
But the shop said it's a pretty big undertaking to get into the transmission like that.
So not sure I want to spend more $K and whether it would be worth it.
big understaking. maybe your tech is not a transmission expert? i saw both bill rader and brian copans swap out R&P. both can do it blind folded. but they ONLY work on transmission so maybe that's why they are so fast.

Originally Posted by Rob S View Post
I know that the 4.0 R&P has been debated for years amongst GT3 owners. Some swear by it. Some say it's not worth it, Some say it's not the best way to go about "changing gears" and that it's better to change individual gears and leave the R&P alone (or perhaps even change both the R&P *and* the individual gears in order to avoid odd gear ratios that are more susceptible to failure). The latter can get quite expensive. My take on it is this: I did it and really liked the change. It wouldn't be the first change I'd make for track use (I'd be all over various suspension mods, safety mods, good tires, LSD upgrades, coolant pipe welding, and so forth first). But I think that the 4.0 R&P can be a worthwhile advantage in certain settings. Yes, changing just the R&P to a 4.0 does make first gear pretty low -- as someone said: "useless." But really, what are you doing in first gear anyway? It's a non-gear on the track either way, and on the street, unless you're drag racing, it's not of critical use either. So I dismiss that as a false concern -- it didn't bother me a bit for street or track use. But the 4.0 does lower the whole gear stack, so you lose a good cruising gear in 6th if you travel long distances on the road. That's something that didn't bother me either, as my car was dedicated to the track. Where the 4.0 really helps was in 2nd gear on the track. Many tracks around here (and everywhere) have at least one turn where the speeds drop to 30-35 mph. For those corners, having the second gear lower than stock (and the subsequent gears lower as well) allows a much better launch out of what would otherwise have been a boggy turn exit. And by lowering the whole stack, on very fast straights, it allowed use of 6th gear, which takes advantage of another gear. So for me, the 4.0 was a great mod -- it was relatively economical and gave me a worthwhile advantage (and more fun) on the track. But whether it's right for you depends on your specific use of the car.
depends on track
if you track is just right for the shortened stack, then sure.
but otherwise u still have the gear stack and spacing so for example you were once in/bn gears 3 and 4, now you are in b/n gears 4 and 5. you are still fk'd just one gear higher. i know many love R and P, but once they drove my re0-geared box. they no longer wax lyric about R and P.

martin, just drive the damn car.
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:13 AM
  #33
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The car is more than capable on the track wo r/p upgrade with certain drivers I've had the pleasure of driving against and faster and imo I'm fairly quick other than the spinning. Mike
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:01 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mooty View Post
depends on track
if you track is just right for the shortened stack, then sure.
but otherwise u still have the gear stack and spacing so for example you were once in/bn gears 3 and 4, now you are in b/n gears 4 and 5. you are still fk'd just one gear higher. i know many love R and P, but once they drove my re0-geared box. they no longer wax lyric about R and P.
.
"Depends on the track" holds true no matter what you do. Of course, you could spend a fortune customizing all the gears for a particular track (and changing the R&P too, which is what Matt Monson at Guard has sometimes recommended in order to select a durable 3rd gear), and then once you're on a different track, you'll again find yourself with the wrong gears. The only way to "do it right" is to have custom gears for different tracks - and maybe another set for the street. That's the rich guy's solution. For the multiple tracks I drive, the R&P change was nearly ideal and an economical way to bring the car into the sweet spot on the torque curve in 2nd gear, where there is so much to be gained (or lost) exiting slower corners. And most tracks have such corners, where big losses accrue if you fall out of the torque band. At higher speeds, it all becomes less critical because higher gears are closer to each other anyway. An R&P change alone is probably half the cost of the multiple-gear-and-R&P-change method, and for the tracks I frequent, it provided 95% of the benefit. That said, what works best for you may not be best for someone else - both mechanically and financially. And any gearing change would be a second or third tier mod as you get set up for the track.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:33 AM
  #35
Chuck Price
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Andy picked up at least 2 secs with the R&P at Mid Ohio. I have one in a box that I had planned on putting in, but my GT3 is on a hiatus, and I have a new jealous mistress. If I track the GT3 again, the R&P will be a no brainer.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:01 PM
  #36
Martin S.
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Default No more fuming in my own juices...

Headed into my trusty mechanic tomorrow and he and his crew will:
1. Drop the motor and weld up the cooling pipes,
2. Install a new expansion tank,
3. Replace all relevant hoses, etc.,
4. Pull off the PCCB rotors and add iron rotors, Giro 2 piece on front and GT3 stock on the rear. Add steel studs and race spec bolts eliminating the stock wheel fastening bolts,
5. Flush the brake fluid, including fluid in the ABS unit,
6. Install Pagid pads all the way around,
7. Install Raceline radiator screens
8. Install RSS roll bar with Schroth 5/6 point belts
9. Install Profi XL seat, Recaro sliders, recaro 5/6 point under seat anchor, Cantrell side mount.

The cost? We'll see, but I can't go to the track without welding up those coolant pipes....what a journey this has been. Thanks to all for listening to my saga.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:21 PM
  #37
Chuck Price
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Martin,

You'll love all of those mods...except perhaps the Pagid pads. They are great pads, but can be testy to bed correctly, and difficult to salvage the rotors if you go wrong. I used them for many years until I found PFC. But, that is personal taste, and many people still use them. I'm really impressed by Girodiscs. They last a long time, but are very expensive. I used throw-away centric rotors on my GT3, and saved about $1k/yr. I have Girodiscs on my Corvette, and they are the highest quality I've ever used. But, they are wear items.
Also, be sure to use good studs. Some are better than others.

Cheers!

Chuck
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:50 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mooty View Post
martin, just drive the damn car.
Agreed. That, dear friends, is MootyWisdom. Listen, and do.



This is so much car - take care of the safety, and learn to drive it well. I have 2 seasons on mine after the 993, and it's a whole different animal. I spent the 1st year fearful/cautious. 2nd season, getting comfortable/respectful/aware. The car doesn't need any performance enhancements - it needs driver skill.

You picked up a peach of an example, don't overthink it, just get out there and enjoy it safely and in good health.

Cheers

Matt
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:00 PM
  #39
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Oh, and good work order you have. As suggested above, the studs are a blessing/curse.

Find out what brand they are installing and get the torque specs right - both on initial install, and then when torquing your wheels.

Lots of good info here if you look it up. I broke a new stud effectively immediately - badly installed? undertorqued by me? Don't know. It was a bad experience so I removed all of them and went back to stock bolts.

Have a set of H&R I will try this season, install carefully, and torque to higher 991 specs. We'll see.

Good luck.

Matt
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Old Yesterday, 11:51 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by 32krazy! View Post
pin the pipes with the motor in the car.
screw the xpel its just a car and your going to abuse it. repaint if needed at the end of the yr.
run oem steel rotors not the high dollar stuff you will burn them up in a yr anyway.
rad screens from mesh at home depot 25$
no need to upgrade the steering wheel for racing.

just saved you about 3k$. unless your doing full on hard core racing just keep it safe and simple
The pipes are going to be welded this week. XPEL already done, have GIRO rotors for the front (An excess, but I had to have at least one set, maybe they'll last 2X more than GT3 iron rotors? We'll see. Already ordered the Rennline screens, another excess, but loving it. Steering wheel will remain stock. I have a 320mm in Dia. TechArt wheel, seems too small. I am having a RSS 931 roll bar installed and a Profi XL seat for me, stock for the passenger. And installing the Schroth 5/6 point harness...have a HANS and a great helmet, driving suit, etc., from my 993 days/daze. Now I am in the GT3 daze, what an incredible car.
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Old Today, 12:54 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
Coolant tank ordered and it will be replaced. Why not..."while you're in there". The two other luscious mods I lust after:
1. 4.0 Ring and pinion, $2,200 or so from Gert
2. PMS or Guard LSD, $???

I ran a Guard 4 plate LSD on my 993, it lasted for at least 10 years...knew it was still good with the torque test...but I was putting 100 HP less through the drive line.
I considered the LSD a safety item because of the stability it offers under braking when it's working properly. I didn't want to mod the car before really learning the platform (first RR car), so I limited all changes to reliability or safety mods: basically your list plus LSD and Cup brake ducts. The cup ducts add life to pads and rotors so why not?
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Old Today, 01:10 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by mistermct View Post
I considered the LSD a safety item because of the stability it offers under braking when it's working properly. I didn't want to mod the car before really learning the platform (first RR car), so I limited all changes to reliability or safety mods: basically your list plus LSD and Cup brake ducts. The cup ducts add life to pads and rotors so why not?
I'll add the LSD if I don't run out of money on the safety mods...the Cup brake ducts will be nice too, and a good alignment...maybe a 4 degree shim for the tail, and the Cup Car front rubber splitter.
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Old Today, 01:18 AM
  #43
Martin S.
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Default More Good advice from Mooty...

"martin, just drive the damn car." Willow Springs in February with all my little safety mods in place, to include the welded coolant pipes. I can hardly wait...especially with the Profi XL seat Mooty recommended...it arrived from Griffin, Berkeley.

I just need to learn how to drive a car that has 100 more HP and weighs about the same as my 993....oh well, somebody has to do it! Ain't getting any younger!

As always thanks to all for the invaluable pointers.
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Old Today, 06:29 AM
  #44
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Sounds like a good plan, the most important thing is the coolant lines.

After a while you will hate the original diff being completely shot. Upgraded diff on these cars make them so much more enjoyable. The only thing I regret not doing is tightening up the gears. Had the gearbox out and fixed 2nd gear in my car a couple of years ago. Should have done it then.
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Old Today, 12:51 PM
  #45
Martin S.
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Upgraded diff is on my short list: Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I had a stock diff upgraded to a Guard 4 plate on my 993...night and day compared to the stock 993 diff. All it took was about one track day around a tight course for that diff to fry itself.

Gears? I love the present gear set for the street...easy to stay in what I perceive to be the engine's causing sweet spot, 3000 RPM.

I hope to get my car back by the end of this week, worst case next week....have the RSS 931 bar in, the Profi XL seat, welded pipes, Pagid pads, GIRO front rotors, new rear rotors (PCCBs going to the shelf)....
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