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What Failure Diagnoses Require Engine Drop/Glitter in Oil

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Old 07-13-2017, 04:45 PM
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leoj65
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Default What Failure Diagnoses Require Engine Drop/Glitter in Oil

Hello All,

Second post here. I bought a 99' 996 with 31000 miles on it 6 months ago. While going to do an oil change after 900 miles, I noticed a large amount of tiny, non ferrous particles in the oil when I dumped the filter in the pan. The oil literally sparkles when it moves around the pan bottom. There was only one tiny magnetic flake in the filter. The pan was spotless when I started. Sample getting analyzed now at Blackstone.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1M...ew?usp=sharing

My question is this, can most failures that might cause these symptoms be initially identified with the engine in the car (bore scoring, timing chains)? The dealer wants to drop the engine and tear it down, but the aftermarket warranty I have wont start paying until the failure is shown to be a covered item... If not covered I will have to find other alternatives than the dealer for repair and don't want to be left with the motor out and in pieces.

Thanks in advance!

Joel
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:58 PM
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Doesn't look good for your engine. Use a magnet and see if they are ferrous metals.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:02 PM
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Non Ferrous
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:07 PM
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Likely main crank bearings.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:21 PM
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Suggest you copy this Thread to the Warranty Company - with the M96 these symptoms are almost always debris from failing crankshaft main bearings. # 5 & 6 are the most likely to go first.
The next stage of damage is the worn bearings will start knocking. After that catastrophic engine failure =quickly.And the F.O.M. spreads throughout the engine causing collateral damage. Such an engine may be rejected as a rebuild candidate by knowledgeable M96 mechanics.
If the worn bearings issue is addressed now ,it may save the Warranty Company the cost of buying and fitting a replacement low miles engine later(= soon!). But it may be too late already if the debris has spread. That is likely the case unless your engine has the spin-on filter upgrade from LN Engineering.
Make sure that you get clear, written Instructions from the Warranty Company about continuing to drive the car. Those Instructions and this Thread may be vital in the coming squabble about repair cost.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:32 PM
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Thank you for your response.

I assume to visually verify the bad crank bearings = engine out and split the cases?
There is a knock at start that goes away in 10-20 secs. Didn't start until last few miles, I took it to the dealer who said it was normal as did the warranty company. This was shortly before the the metal in oil problem.

Even with the metal in oil found later, the warranty company told me to change the oil and drive it until I got other indications... When I asked for a verifying statement in an email, I got a call saying a teardown was authorized.., but at my expense. I had to verify by the contract that the teardown would be paid for if a covered item was the final cause.

Hence my desire to verify the cause with the minimum of cost anticipating pushback from the warranty people.

Last edited by leoj65; 07-13-2017 at 05:43 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:37 PM
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Don't start it again!
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:05 PM
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With the pan off,it may be difficult to prove bearing wear to the satisfaction of the Warranty Company.
At this stage it is more a legal maneuvering issue. Mechanically, your M96 is a "Dead Man Walking".
So just make sure you get clear written Instructions to the simple question: "Can I drive it or not?"
You need legal advice .I can only give M96 repair advice.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:09 PM
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Sorry about your engine. Hope the Warranty company covers it. As an aside, its kinda funny that someone thinks a copy of a thread on an internet bulletin board will make a difference when making your case. Some folks just crack me up.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by thechileman View Post
Sorry about your engine. Hope the Warranty company covers it. As an aside, its kinda funny that someone thinks a copy of a thread on an internet bulletin board will make a difference when making your case. Some folks just crack me up.
It is called expert testimony & due care.And the word expert is relative.And clearly the Warranty Company do not care and are not knowledgeable about the M96 compared to some of us here.
If anyone has a better no-cost suggestion to help Leo, speak up .
As experts go, good luck finding more impressive credentials for the M96 than Post #12 !
Yes indeed a Rennlist Thread can be a very credible source of expert advice see #12 and ignore mine.

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Old 07-13-2017, 06:20 PM
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I'll take all the free device I can get.
will not be driving it further.
Maybe the lab results will point a definite finger.

Does bore scoring show up as non magnetic particles in the oil?

Anyone else maybe have a non engine removal verification idea for oil glitter?

Last edited by leoj65; 07-13-2017 at 06:24 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:21 PM
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21 out of my 29 documented modes of failure will create "glitter" in the oil. The size, shape, color, and quantity of the debris is the key
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:40 PM
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Can't find the list on your site or online for a description of mode #21. Only #24 comes up in Youtube.
What should I look for in the debris?

Thanks!
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by leoj65 View Post
Can't find the list on your site or online for a description of mode #21. Only #24 comes up in Youtube.
What should I look for in the debris?

Thanks!
No, 21 of the 29 failures exhibit this. Not just #21.

I retain all the failure mode details. Sharing it made me a "Fear Monger" in the eyes of those modern humans that cannot accept the truth.

Lab results won;t show much, if anything. Debris that can be seen with the naked eye is too large for UOA to detect, unless a particulate test is employed. Few services can effectively offer this.

if you are dealing with a warranty company, I will pray for you.

Don;t let anyone tear the engine down, you'll often end up with a 2-4K bill, and nothing done. The "tear down" is the shop's way of throwing a lasso on your ***. Dealers are renowned for this, and when we pluck cars off their lots, the customer has to pay a ridiculous fee just to have the vehicle released.

Post pics of this debris, and I will identify it.
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www.flat6innovations.com
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:52 PM
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Ok thank you! I will see what I can do.. These things are specks.
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