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What Failure Diagnoses Require Engine Drop/Glitter in Oil

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What Failure Diagnoses Require Engine Drop/Glitter in Oil

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Old 07-13-2017, 05:53 PM
  #16  
thechileman
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Jake alluded to the reason for my comment Schnell. Extended warranty companies don't care what is right, or what caused the problem, not really. They make their money by not paying claims. And a big one like this will have them looking for every way NOT to pay it. They will fight the claim no matter what...
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:54 PM
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Clients always pay handsomely for such Expert Testimony.
For those who snipe at Jake ,please note Leo does not appear to be a Flat6 customer and is a Rennlist noob.
Admirable kindness from someone who should be doing other things.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:58 PM
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These things are specks.
Which are the WORST. They suspend in oil, and are delivered everywhere in the engine.

People say "its no big deal, they are tiny".

Yeah, so tiny that they go everywhere.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:06 PM
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In "Jake Speak" this means something like :
if you replace the worn bearing,the debris will have already spread throughout the engine (because you have no LN oil filter upgrade??) .This debris may block oil-ways and may eventually cause collateral damage to the "repaired" engine.
Yes,Leo I had a similar problem to yours years ago and Jake's advice on this subject got me started on M96 work. I never paid him a dime for anything. He helped anyway.I hope you can tell I am grateful and like to share what I learned from him and some other Forum members who get deep into the M96..
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:44 PM
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I am new posting here, but I did read up here before buying on these forums and am aware of many of the forum issues you mention... One of my few other post was to announce the happy purchase of my new 996! Oh yay... Thanks all for your time and advice! Especially Jake

Got the warranty as insurance if something did go wrong knowing that they will fight tooth and nail...

Oh and the names Joel, Leoj is Joel backwards.

Last edited by leoj65; 07-13-2017 at 10:12 PM. Reason: additon
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:08 PM
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I hope you read every word of your warranty! Good luck and please keep this thread alive with your findings.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:02 PM
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Just spent two hours trying to get a decent picture of any of them but no luck due to their size.

After magnifying what is in the drain pan from a filter housing worth of oil, the best I can say is several of the similar particles look like little tiny shiny triangular arrowheads (sharks tooth?) less than 1mm long.. There was one rectangular piece also. Everything else is just a point of light like gold dust moving around with the oil. I tried straining the oil through a paper towel but they are so small they barely show up as a few flashes if you look at the sheet in the sun. In the drain pan and filter housing they are a hundred different flashes of light as the oil moves. If you put a light on the oil and move a magnet under the drain pan maybe 2-3% show some reaction to the magnet.

Thanks!

Joel

Last edited by leoj65; 07-13-2017 at 11:51 PM. Reason: reorder
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:27 PM
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I will be following your story closely.

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Old 07-13-2017, 11:31 PM
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NM

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Old 07-14-2017, 12:02 AM
  #25  
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Well I may be taking that course also unless warranty pays like they should..... :/

I planned on working on it myself as a project at some point but thought I should get at least 40k more off a 31k 99' motor down here in warm California..
If I had just looked at the filter element and not also the oil in the drain pan in the sunlight I would be driving it around until who knows what happened. Then fighting the warranty company for a complete loss probably. I will post my UOA even though it will probably not show anything as per post above..

I do have a very recent slight knocking(not ticking) at start up that goes away quickly. Sometime fading in and out until stopping.

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Old 07-14-2017, 01:23 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Schnell Gelb View Post
With the pan off,it may be difficult to prove bearing wear to the satisfaction of the Warranty Company.
At this stage it is more a legal maneuvering issue. Mechanically, your M96 is a "Dead Man Walking".
So just make sure you get clear written Instructions to the simple question: "Can I drive it or not?"
You need legal advice .I can only give M96 repair advice.
I hope it all works out for you Joel, but the shape you describe reminds me a lot of sheared metal caused by galling. I've noticed these 996 engines are loud at startup which makes me wonder how long after cold start up it takes to get everything up to proper lube specs.

My family has been involved in automotive racing and auto testing and engineering for a long time. Most engine wear occurs at cold startup. Mileage doesn't really mean a whole lot for engine wear. Honestly the worst case is lots of cold start ups and short trips over and over. My first car was a test vehicle that ran 24 hrs a day 6 days a week and was serviced routinely. Even at 250,000 miles the engine was fine.

Cold starts cause the most wear.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:57 AM
  #27  
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I went to two reputable independent shops today here in San Diego in an effort to proceed in the direction of identifying the cause of the metal in my oil so the findings can be presented to my warranty company. The first one was adamant (95% sure) that it was the IMSB causing the deposits even though it is nonmagnetic. When asked why a steel bearing failing would cause nonmagnetic particles they said there's copper in the IMSB also... Hmmm. Also said he has never seen bore scoring and regardless most of the metal would be deposited in the combustion chamber and not the oil if so. Suggested that since it was caught early, it maybe possible to get away with just changing the IMS bearing ($2800). I am well aware of the negatives of just changing the bearing...


The second place took more time and went straight to the IMSB also but when I describe almost no particle reaction to a magnet under the drain pan he discussed possible timing chain guide/tensioner failures causing chain contact with aluminum parts. Asked about noise from loose chains on start up which makes sense but there is none. Did not mention bore scoring. He suggested I install the magnetic drain plug I have and drive it 500 miles more, bring it in and he will examine the drain plug, filter and timing on his analyzer and then go from there.


I don't want to drive this thing but I need a failure to show to the warranty company. I am thinking I may have to just pay someone to bore scope it, check for IMSB failure and any other thing that can be accomplished without the worst case teardown with no fix as Jake described above.


Any suggestions?
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:12 AM
  #28  
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The responses you got are exactly what I got in Pasadena ,Ca.when I was in the same situation years ago. Waste of time. Clearly clueless about the M96.
We have Forum Members in the San Diego area who could direct you to better sources.PCA may help if you are a member. If you find yourself in Orange Co , try Hergesheimer in Lake Forest or further North, Rennsport in Torrance.
A short cut may be to ask LN Engineering for your closest LN approved/certified IMSB Installer. He would have way more clue !
Others may have better ideas? Good Luck !
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:14 AM
  #29  
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Both of them have their heads way up their asses. Don't take them a Go Kart to work on, much less a Porsche.

The IMS Bearing is 100% made of FERROUS materials. There's no metal in the bearing that isn't ferrous. It has no copper in the composition.None. Zero.

They have probably seen an IMSB failure where copper was present. Why? Because it ran long enough shedding ferrous material that it destroyed the main bearings, and rod bearings as collateral damages. Those bearings DO have copper in their composition.

The bore scope will usually show nothing in regard to cylinder wear. Why? Because the wear starts at the bottom of the bore. This is the point that is covered when the piston is positioned at BDC for a bore scope evaluation. The piston covers the point where wear begins, and is always the greatest.

The only way to see this is removal of the sump plate and going in from underneath, through the "back door" with the piston at TDC during inspection. This means you have to scope through the spark plug hole, and through the sump.

The issue is that you can only access 3 of 6 cylinders from the sump plate due to obstructions.

Why install a magnet to monitor non- ferrous material? Yes folks, we can't make this up. Shops are getting worse- if you can't plug a scan tool into it and fix it, they are lost. The are "Technicians", because they damn sure aren't "mechanics". Mechanical things kick their asses.
__________________
Flat 6 Innovations
Inventor of the IMS Solution:
US Patents 8,992,089, 9,416,697 & 9,909,469

Inventor of the Single Row Pro IMS Retrofit, and Faultless Tool with method of installation:
US Patent 9,687,974


www.flat6innovations.com
Engine Failure Hotline- 706-219.4874

M96/ M97/ 9a1 Engine Specialists-
-Extensive Internal Engine Repairs
-Performance Updated Engines

-Engine Rebuild Training Courses
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:16 AM
  #30  
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My skin crawled when I read "drive it another 500 miles"...
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