Flat6 Innovations

But I'll not allow them to advertise them with my name, or any reference to us.

Just because a unit tests good out of the box, doesn't mean it will last forever, or that it won't fail in the first 50 miles. I do everything I can to mitigate risks of responsibility for parts. Its all about keeping the phone from ringing when people want to find the next person to blame.

wildbilly32

So whomever supplies the out of the box failed part does not replace for free? Or even the part with 50 miles on it? I understand it is a PITA to change but, hopefully, you don't pay for a second new part! When I worked for a living I dealt with numerous parts suppliers. Their big deal was their part warranty I.E. "if it fails we will give you a new part." I always pushed for labor to re-replace their crappy parts because most times labor and downtime costs were much more than the defective part. This is not even considering associated damage due to part failure and operational delay costs. They usually looked at me like I was from Mars! I can't tell you how many vendors I threw out of my facilities for this issue...Those were the good old days...NOT! My blood pressure is much lower today.

Flat6 Innovations

These are Genuine parts. Porsche never released the part to anyone other than Mann. If the units are bought from a distributor who sources them from a dealer, thats the best case, as long as the distributor will make good on it.

This puts the distributor in the loop and their 2 year warranty kicks in. This isn;t fair to them, as they get raped by Porsche on the failed units. This is why they want me to make the test fixturing for this so badly.

Often times, NO, we have no warranties on any of the parts that are sold to us, as they are classified as performance products, and are for "racing purposes". This means as the engine builder we get a big hosing job if something happens. Nothing about it is fair, but neither is life, and I've been dealing with it for the last 27 years of my life. It gets old. I am very up front about this topic at the onset of all projects with my purchasers. If they ask the wrong questions, in the wrong manner on this topic, or don't like my responses, then we never get started with them.


Often times, yes, we have to. Its so much bullsh** and hassle/ disappointment to deal with some polyester suit wearing puke sitting in his cubicle asking questions, that we generally just suck it up and fix the damn thing. I get so mad at those clowns that I could tear their head off right through the phone line.

I finally had a claim on an AOS that SSF Auto Parts paid to replace a few weeks ago. The shop "saw them coming" as my customer was 1,200 miles away and had a failed AOS. They paid the ridiculous 1,200.00 in labor, but that shop royally screwed themselves with me. They ended up on the black list, and will never buy another Raby developed product. Total rip off.

You name it, and I have seen it with warranty repairs... SOme of them are fake claims made by guys who have friends who own shops, make up issues, and then charge to repair them... Then the owner and shop owner split the "profit" on the fraud. Been there, done that, and busted their asses after flying 2,300 miles overnight to show up in person unannounced.

Nickshu

Sounds like there is a huge opportunity here for someone to produce an improved aftermarket version of the AOS. Even if it costs 4x the Porsche OEM unit I think a lot of people would pay it for the piece of mind that it should be reliable. Unfortunately it often costs more to produce such a part than anyone can make selling it, probably why it has not been done yet.

moburki

I was thinking the same thing... then, my business owner self kicked in. The cost of engineering/prototyping/development would be astronomical. Say you figure out a superior product after all the work. Now go into production and have a run of defective components. Holy ****, I don't even want to think of the backlash from customer base with delays, or worse failures that were caused by said defect before caught. All that aside, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is working on this as we speak. As far as what the end product would cost, I would say more like close to 10x price of a mass produced molded plastic piece..

Flat6 Innovations

I've developed two of them. Either could hit the market tomorrow. Developers don't give a damn what it costs, I don;t even keep track of those costs- if I did, it would never be completed. It costs what it costs, and we develop without monetary compromise. Thats why what I do really works.

At the end of the day the risks associated with selling them were too great. There comes a time when we stop caring about successes, and have to worry more about keeping what we already have. That means no new risks.

The problems with this are:
-The AOS is an emissions control item. To alter it in ANY way carries heavy federal penalties.
-Nothing else that I've came up with thats designed differently will fit in the stock location. We have had to mount them remotely, run hoses, and etc
-Cost: No, people WON"T pay. I experienced this with the heavy duty, double bearing water pumps that we developed. They cost double, and were bomb proof, but people didn't buy them. I've had people commit to new developments by the hundreds, then we make the product and can't sell 10 of them. Been there, done that.

-If people do pay, it sets the product up for failure, as the price commands that it will be perfect, and therefore ANY issues that an installer may have with fitment, effectiveness or etc makes people whine loudly because of "what it cost".

-The AOS balances fuel trim. If the pressures are not correct within the crankcase the engine runs rich, or lean, and that means an AOS can kill cylinders, create oil consumption, and etc.


As a developer, the actual act of making something function is the easy part. To each of you that don't do this everyday, something may appear to be lucrative, but trust me, it won't be. With distribution required, the developer/ manufacturer makes less money than the distributor, wholesaler, or retailer. Its a lot like being a song writer, you invent the art, but get the smallest portion, and the biggest liability. Luckily I do it for fun, and I make my living with other businesses that I own.

That said, if anyone here is crazy enough, I'll sell them my product which is Patent Pending, and they can bring it to market. LN is too smart to sell it, and so am I.

Nickshu

I have been in the car-world as an enthusiast since the early 1990's. Classic cars, sports cars, and had one track/race car.


Your description above sums up EXACTLY the issue that stifles most aftermarket developers and is spot on. Especially the group buy thing where everyone signs on then when it's time to buy no one shows up.

squawbum

Hey guys! I think a really simple solution would be to separate the PCV and separator. The separator could sit where the AOS is normally since it won't fail and the PCV could be mounted on the front of the engine where the two are simply connected with a vacuum tube. Of course this would mean someone making this but all that would really need to made is a fitting that fit into the existing port where the AOS mounts.

Then an after market separator. You connect it's crankcase ports to the new adapter and crankcase port from bank 2, connect the coolant lines and output port to the original oil flowback port the vacuum line to a PCV valve mounted on the front of the engine.

The separator is never going to fail since since it has no moving parts. If the diaphragm on the pcv fails than you simply change it out. A small PCV can easily be mounted above the left side intake manifold.

Then this AOS issue would be a non issue and changing it would be an easy DIY and probably make Flat 6's life much easier with respect to AOS related issues. Would this work?

Flat6 Innovations

The issue is the chamber has to be so large to accommodate the power levels we are working with. What you have described is one way that I have done this. The issue is the large chamber has no where it can be fitted in the engine bay.

At the end of the day, issue #1 is Federal Emissions laws. We can make these things work on non- street cars very easily, or just do away with an AOS completely (which I do for track cars all the time).

I have already designed an orifice based arrangement that allows the chamber size to be variable, based on performance of a given engine, allowing one AOS to be utilized across all 9X6/9x7 vehicles from 1997-2008.

Making it work is the easiest part of this. The rest of the issues come from a non- technical perspective.

Unfortunately, a company that has a lot to lose can't offer this, which is why its been at a stalemate since 2007 when I first came up with it.

jhbrennan

Sorry to resurrect a thread from almost a year ago but I'm still confused about the coolant connections to the AOS. Is the coolant flow there to heat or cool and why does the Boxster not have any coolant connections to the AOS - can't be that much difference in engine operating temperatures between 996 and Boxster. Any potential issues created by bypassing the coolant connections to the AOS on a 996?Thanks.

Ahsai

The coolant is to warm up the AOS to prevent icing in the crankcase vapor. The difference in Boxster is the location of the AOS that makes the AOS less prone to icing.
I don't expect issues to bypass the coolant in warm climate regions.

mayday1

Can we not connect the coolant and instead heat it electrically? If the AOS has only a tiny amount of electrically heated coolant, any intermix problem will be contained and fixed with just an oil change.
I don't really understand how the AOS works, or what it's failure mode is, so I may be talking nonsense.

Since I'm in CA and don't have to worry about freezing temps, can I simply bypass the coolant and run the AOS dry, and never have to worry about a failure?

DBJoe996

You can bypass the coolant to the AOS but that does not result in "never have to worry about a failure." The diaphragm inside the AOS is the problem. It fails over time from many heat cycles and exposure to crankcase vacuum/fumes. It is a cheap plastic part that will fail eventually, whether it has coolant going to it or not.