ShockMark

Hello all!
I'm a newbie here, and in much need of opinions, suggestions, and/or advice.

I have a 2001 Porsche 911 Carrera. It is a tiptronic and has 101,200 miles on it. I've owned it for just over a year. I recently discovered an oil leak and it was coming from the rear main seal area. Took it to the local independent Porsche shop who have an amazing reputation, to have them fix the rear main seal, replace the IMS bearing, etc.

They first call me to let me know the oil looked good and there was nothing in the oil filter. Great news. But a little later they call to tell me they found bits of plastic in the sump pump. They said they have seen this before, its the IMS Tensioner Paddle and although its only a $20 part they can't do the IMS retrofit and that my engine is done. Its only a matter of time before it fails. They reinstalled the sump pump, put a new filter on and filled it with oil and said there is nothing they can do that will be worth it compared to the price of the car, and I should sell it immediately.

Well, morally and ethically I can't sell my car knowing this and let it end up being someone else's issue that they didn't sign up for. So that isn't an option. So I started researching and I only found a three threads containing pictures with people finding plastic in their sump pumps. All three are a little different and mine is different to all three (I think).

Here are the threads:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/845488-what-i-found-in-my-oil-pan-yesterday.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/722321-please-help-identify-bits-found-in-oil-filter.html

I don't know if its ok to post threads from other websites, so if not then I apologize. Let me know and I will remove it.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996/224085-plastic-debris-oil-sump.html:

The last thread has pictures half way down, but had larger pictures near the bottom of the thread.

Here is a picture of what was found in my car:



I know I might be grasping at straws here, but what do you guys think? Could the shop be wrong? Also, when I first got the car i had an oil leak from a cracked spark plug tube. The tube was actually broken and a piece dropped inside. Could it have made its way to the sump pump? Just looking for thoughts, and advice. Is the car done? It runs as it always has except for the rear main seal leak.

Thanks in advance to all comments. I appreciate you all taking the time to help me out.

Mark.



Bits of plastic found in my sump pump.

AWDGuy

They could be correct. They could be wrong and those bits are from your timing chain guide rails which are serviceable but very labor intensive.

Well....the IMS paddle is techncally serviceable but you need to split the engine case. Which is even more labour intensive. Either way, you are looking at thousands to get it done at the dealer.

Blrmkr

Others who are far more knowledgeable then myself will chime in to give you some good advice. From following threads over the last few years the paddle tensioners do wear and can be replaced. Sounds like the shop is looking at this from a purely economical standpoint, but the reality is that many of us will spend more than the value of the car to keep it running if necessary.

I, like you, really take exception to the advice to button it up and pass the problem on to someone else.

Looking forward to hearing the great advice you will get from experts that are on this forum.

Device2

I had the similar thing happen to My 2000 996 Tip motor after 100K.





Found all these pieces of plastic in the Oil Pan after dropping it due to a small oil leak, oil change and AOS failure.




Dropped and dissected the motor to find the root cause of Brown and Black material. Found the Brown material to be 4 very worn down engine original VareoCam tension chain pads. As you can see New (left) versus old (right).


Inspected all the other chain rails, two had some notable wear so I will be replacing all and also inspected the IMS chain paddle and black chain rail that partners with the paddle. Also inspected the black splash baffle and like you I can only assume as to where the black plastic came from since all the black plastic components in the motor are intact.

DBJoe996

It could be pieces from the spark plug tube, but you said only a "piece" fell in. The problem is how do you know for sure? See spark plug tubes here #27: http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-p...section=103-00

Okay then. You can't be sure if it is pieces from the spark plug tube, chain tensioner rails or IMS paddle. It's a tough place to be, and the only sure way to tell is to drop the engine and get in there. Basically at this point you are talking a total rebuild. Or, take a $15K gamble and run it. Drop sump plate in 1K miles and see if there is more debris. BTW, did they do any diagnostics on cam deviations and so on? If it is the IMS tensioner paddle, seems like there would be some weird deviations out of spec. Or then again, maybe not...just wear. In the end, the pieces were there and they came from somewhere. So it is down to either tear it apart and find out what is wrong, repair, or run it until something breaks. Also might consider not running it, engine exchange w/good core, and getting back on the road. I hope Ahsai weighs in on the internals and what might be wrong.

AWDGuy

Those peices are brown it looks like (theres som black ones too) which leads me to beleive its the timing chain guide rails. I had the same problem.

Pretty sure my car has had all of Rennlists listed problems. lol

Ahsai

Hi Joe, I hope Jake will chime in soon. In this case, it seems the shapes of the pieces may give us more clues. There are 4 to 5 relatively large and flat pieces.

Flat6 Innovations

This isn't just any material.. It is specifically from the IMS Tensioner paddle wear pad. This is the 3rd part that's installed to the engine, so its just about as deep inside the engine as possible. I can tell this by the size, shape, thickness, and color of this material.

Thee photos are very familiar to me.

Macster

While the bits look sinister they are not proof the "IMS tensioner paddle" is toast.

Those bits could been in there since the engine left the factory.

Were it my car I would be inclined to drive the car some while keeping an ear (or two) tuned to the engine for any signs of trouble. Odd noises, rough running, anything out of the ordinary you shut off the engine first then ask questions.

But absent any untoward noises/behavior from the engine, after some engine run time I'd drop the oil filter housing and carefully dump the contents into a *clean* drain pan.

If you see an assortment of plastic bits -- hard plastic bits -- these are almost certainly coming from a chain guide. Whether the bits are coming from the VarioCam actuator rails, the IMS to intake cam chain guides, or the crank to IMS chain guide is hard to say. The color may help. Caramel colored bits is VarioCam actuator plastic and I think (based on pics I have of a 996 engine apart) the IMS to intake cam chain guides. Dark brown, almost black, is the crank to IMS chain guide.

Regardless a fresh crop of plastic debris is not a good sign.

No plastic bits -- other than may be a few small bits which can be just some residual trash -- is a good sign. Replace the filter element and the various o-rings and fill the housing with the proper oil and install and drive on.

I'd still be on the lookout for any untoward engine activity for a while. You could of course check the filter housing oil and element as described above after another X number of miles, maybe several times until the next scheduled oil change, to verify no additional chain guide material of any color is showing up in the oil.

Flat6 Innovations

If the tensioner paddle wear pad wears enough to become thin, and fall off... Then the tensioner hyperextends and jams. When that happens the tensioner paddle snaps in half, and the engine loses valve timing.

I see this one quite often these days.

DBJoe996

Well, for me it seems we have a verdict! So to the OP, you are going to have to consider either (1) tear down engine and get it fixed - it is the IMS paddle cuz Jake says so, and BTW the original prognosis; (2) chance it and run it until it blows with valves blown through the pistons. Since I love my car and personally probably way to impractical regarding cost, I would jump into a rebuild/repair and end up with something awesome....even if it took a team of experts. Please don't go the low road and unload it on some unsuspecting person. You could trade the car in with devalued $ and let someone else take on the repair/rebuild if you don't have the time/inclination/$ to do it yourself. It is not the end of the world and can be repaired. IMHO do not put more engine hours on it. Unfortunate circumstances.

Noz1974

I wouldn't leave it the tensioner paddle only clips over the metal part as its interchangeable it's not like it's bonded on and a bit has come off it just clips over the edges and if part of this has gone it could be literally just holding on, and like Jake says once it goes the engine goes with it.
The plastic shouldn't have done any damage not like an IMS or something where metal gets pulled through the engine, your lucky in a way , all the parts should be ok inside your engine as long as it's clean when put back together you could pretty much re use everything just new gaskets and seals etc
Of course you can start down the , while I'm in there road but if you just wanted to get up and running again it might not be too bad to do yourself or by a trusted independent, even refreshing the bearings rings chains and rains etc shouldn't be too bad , you'll be In for the labour anyway if you don't do it yourself as you will have to get the cases off and get the bearing carrier out to sort the ims paddle, it's a lot of work but could be worse I think!!
Don't just leave it though as when it goes it will do a lot of damage , the cams will go out of time and hit the Pistons bending the valves damaging the Pistons , damaging the heads , plus other things!!
It's silly it's a small cheap part it's just hard to get to it that's the problem, good luck with it !!

ShockMark

Wow! I wasn't expecting so many great responses so fast. Thank you all, sincerely. What an awesome community!

So basically I'm looking at rebuilding or buying a used or rebuilt engine. As far as me rebuilding, I will probably be in way over my head. Until this incident I've done all the work on this car myself including oil changes, spark plugs, coils, cold air intake, upgraded plenum and throttle body, changed out the exhaust, lowered the car, and Plasti Dip the wheels. However, before this I have never worked on any car in my life. Not even an oil change (do I lose my man card?). Now, I'm not scared but it's probably not the smartest decision to attempt this on my own, right?

So it comes down to paying to have it rebuilt or buying a used or rebuilt engine. I don't have a clue of how long it would take or what it would cost to have it rebuilt. I've seen prices for used and rebuilt engines on the internet and ebay range from $3,999 from a dismantler up to $25,000. I have two daughters, a 5 year old and a new 4 month old, so I don't want to go too crazy spending extra money, but also don't want to deal with this again if possible. Unless there's a place that will do a trade for one of the kids.... I joke. Right now I like them more then the car. That might change during the teenage years. What is the most cost effective, and yet smart purchase approach? Getting used I will probably see the same issues. What is a good price for a rebuilt engine? What would you all do in my position?

And since I'm new and this is my first post I won't fan the flames on the LSx swap debate.

Thanks again guys. I appreciate you taking the time to helping me out. Here is a picture of the one you are helping to save:

Cuda911

I can relate. Jake tore down my blown motor and found that it was a broken paddle, which was then sent through the side of the block by the chain.

Flat6 Innovations

This happens more times than people think. This is often confused with an IMS Bearing failure, since it offers many of the same symptoms. If someone doesn't extract the bearing flange, and they diagnose only from cam timing, or lack of camshaft movement when the crank is rotated, it will fool most people.

Corrosive wear from not changing oil often enough (calendar time, not miles!) is a huge contributor to this mode of failure. The other driving factor is a tired IMS tensioner which allows the IMS drive chain to slacken at start up. This slaps the wear pad and beats the **** out of it. People that have start up chain rattle and don;t address it will ultimately experience this failure, or a broken IMS drive chain.