996 vs 928 buying advice
06-20-2016, 10:14 AM
#46
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I'm 6'1", 200 lbs and have both a 997.1 (actually 2 counting the wife's) and a 928 Spyder (custom convertible). Both my wife I use the rear seats for the kids, currently 8 and 11 yrs old. For me, even with the 8 year old behind me in the 997, my seat has to be further forward than I'd like it to be and it's a bit cramped - I'm assuming the 996 has the same size rear seat, since the car wasn't made larger until the 991. For rear seat use, the Cabs are worse as the seatbacks is actually angled forward from vertical to make space for the folding roof, so stay with a Coupe. The 928 has a larger rear seat, but for that to be true, you probably need to find a sunroof delete version and these usually go for a premium. They have more rear seat space because with the extra headroom, even relatively tall people can recline the seat less.
I mention this because depending on your size, neither option may provide a real usable back seat and you can focus your search on 2-seater cars that fall more into your price range.
My wife DDs her 997 and it is a super reliable car. With a 996 you need to find one that has had the IMS bearing replaced, preferably with "The IMS Solution" as that is a lifetime upgrade, whereas the other replacement bearings have an expected service life where they should be replaced again. Other things you want to look for being replaced on the M96 motor are the waterpump (should be replaced every 50,000 miles or so even though this isn't shown in the service documentation), the clutch, and the coolant reservoir tank. The original suspension components are aluminum with rubber bushings. At the age and probably mileage of most 996s in your price range, you need to have these looked at as well, as the rubber bits aren't sold separately and you need to replace the complete aluminium arm. Motor mounts same deal, as they're rubber and are probably sagging by now. If it looks like there is excessive clearance between the exhaust tips and body of the car, that's likely motor mounts.
Good luck with your search and decision.
I mention this because depending on your size, neither option may provide a real usable back seat and you can focus your search on 2-seater cars that fall more into your price range.
My wife DDs her 997 and it is a super reliable car. With a 996 you need to find one that has had the IMS bearing replaced, preferably with "The IMS Solution" as that is a lifetime upgrade, whereas the other replacement bearings have an expected service life where they should be replaced again. Other things you want to look for being replaced on the M96 motor are the waterpump (should be replaced every 50,000 miles or so even though this isn't shown in the service documentation), the clutch, and the coolant reservoir tank. The original suspension components are aluminum with rubber bushings. At the age and probably mileage of most 996s in your price range, you need to have these looked at as well, as the rubber bits aren't sold separately and you need to replace the complete aluminium arm. Motor mounts same deal, as they're rubber and are probably sagging by now. If it looks like there is excessive clearance between the exhaust tips and body of the car, that's likely motor mounts.
Good luck with your search and decision.
06-20-2016, 10:25 AM
#47
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I'm 6'1", 200 lbs and have both a 997.1 (actually 2 counting the wife's) and a 928 Spyder (custom convertible). Both my wife I use the rear seats for the kids, currently 8 and 11 yrs old. For me, even with the 8 year old behind me in the 997, my seat has to be further forward than I'd like it to be and it's a bit cramped - I'm assuming the 996 has the same size rear seat, since the car wasn't made larger until the 991. For rear seat use, the Cabs are worse as the seatbacks is actually angled forward from vertical to make space for the folding roof, so stay with a Coupe. The 928 has a larger rear seat, but for that to be true, you probably need to find a sunroof delete version and these usually go for a premium. They have more rear seat space because with the extra headroom, even relatively tall people can recline the seat less.
I mention this because depending on your size, neither option may provide a real usable back seat and you can focus your search on 2-seater cars that fall more into your price range.
My wife DDs her 997 and it is a super reliable car. With a 996 you need to find one that has had the IMS bearing replaced, preferably with "The IMS Solution" as that is a lifetime upgrade, whereas the other replacement bearings have an expected service life where they should be replaced again. Other things you want to look for being replaced on the M96 motor are the waterpump (should be replaced every 50,000 miles or so even though this isn't shown in the service documentation), the clutch, and the coolant reservoir tank. The original suspension components are aluminum with rubber bushings. At the age and probably mileage of most 996s in your price range, you need to have these looked at as well, as the rubber bits aren't sold separately and you need to replace the complete aluminium arm. Motor mounts same deal, as they're rubber and are probably sagging by now. If it looks like there is excessive clearance between the exhaust tips and body of the car, that's likely motor mounts.
Good luck with your search and decision.
I mention this because depending on your size, neither option may provide a real usable back seat and you can focus your search on 2-seater cars that fall more into your price range.
My wife DDs her 997 and it is a super reliable car. With a 996 you need to find one that has had the IMS bearing replaced, preferably with "The IMS Solution" as that is a lifetime upgrade, whereas the other replacement bearings have an expected service life where they should be replaced again. Other things you want to look for being replaced on the M96 motor are the waterpump (should be replaced every 50,000 miles or so even though this isn't shown in the service documentation), the clutch, and the coolant reservoir tank. The original suspension components are aluminum with rubber bushings. At the age and probably mileage of most 996s in your price range, you need to have these looked at as well, as the rubber bits aren't sold separately and you need to replace the complete aluminium arm. Motor mounts same deal, as they're rubber and are probably sagging by now. If it looks like there is excessive clearance between the exhaust tips and body of the car, that's likely motor mounts.
Good luck with your search and decision.
I assume that your points re issues to look out for would apply to a boxster year models in my price range 99-2000ish.
06-20-2016, 11:24 AM
#48
Drifting
I feel the need to defend the 944. My 944S2 ('89-'91) was a great car. If it needed something there was room to work under the hood. Properly set-up they are a blast to drive. I never owned a 968 but really like the lines and am still considering getting out of my 996 and into a 968. They may cost less to maintain but as others have written - if you need parts then be prepared for sticker shock. My 928 was a nice car as well. Super highway cruiser, but my Guards Red ended up looking almost orange by time I got out of it. Of course all the air-cooled 911's have appreciated out of your range so we can't talk about them. Being a 996 newbie I can't really comment on reliability but remember all Porsches have something that folks will bring up.
06-20-2016, 11:29 AM
#49
Personally I wouldn't compromise and wish you had something later. Just keep looking out for a well cared 996. It is still modern, reliable and has most of the creature comforts. There's only apples to oranges comparison to others IMO. I dont' know how old your kids are but trust me, there's no better joy than having your kids experience the same kind of ride as you. As other's said, you can get lucky from time to time and get a decent mk1 model for $15-17k. Just be patient and do your due diligence in finding one that's been taken care of with the right paperwork/maintenance/history and ppi. Good Luck.
06-20-2016, 11:57 AM
#50
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I've owned and daily driven a 914, two different 944 Turbos, and two different 928s a GT and a GTS, a Boxster S and several other non-P cars. My opinion is no matter what kind of "sport car" you get it is going to cost you money for upkeep period. Both in maintenance and upgrades, and you will always want to do upgrades. What you need to decide is if you like the looks of and more importantly how it drives. Then the costs of keeping it running as a daily driver become moot. After driving the different models and choosing the one you like most, get the best example you can afford and set back some money to take care of some repairs once you get it. As a normal rule people don't sell cars with nothing wrong or some sort of maintenance that has been deferred or neglected.
I currently own a 928S4, a 951 and a 996tt. Previously owned a 964 and a NA 996. Out of all 5 of these, the NA 996 was the best daily driver. The 996tt is a better car, but I have odometer angst and rain angst and snow angst and crappy-other-driver angst, so I don't drive it as much as I'd like. The '99 996 aero coupe, on the other hand, had 148,000 miles on the odometer and that thing was fantastic and reliable and easy to work on and got good gas mileage and was comfortable and modern. I drove it everywhere all the time and enjoyed the hell out of it.
My 20 year old son has daily driven the 951 since he was 15 years old, with the caveat that in the winter the past couple of years we got him another car to drive off to college. He likes it, but he prefers the more modern cars (which he will be free to buy one for himself when he graduates from college). Bottom line, the 951 has performed well as a daily driver.
The 928S4 as a daily? Well, I really enjoy owning that car and it puts a smile on my face when I drive it. But it's kind of like a St. Bernard - big, sloppy, lovable, but just not particularly practical. Mine has good bones (engine, paint, interior), but the "To Do" list is a mile long and gets longer almost every time I drive it (I discover or break something that needs fixing).
Boxster as a daily? You said you've got kids. Nothing against the Boxster, but if you've got kids you want to cart around, you will need/want back seats. Boxsters are great cars, despite the "chick car" stigma, but they aren't a 911. If you buy a Boxster, you'll soon find yourself wishing you had bought the 996. You rarely see anybody lamenting the opposite.
Bottom line, I'd stay the course on the search for the NA 996. It and the Boxster are the best bang for the buck in the Porsche world, but you'll be happier with the 996 and the price difference is maybe $5,000. And you aren't really spending the extra $5,000, you'll easily get that back when it comes time to sell or trade the 996. So, you're really just parking the $5,000 in the car for the time that you own it, and it therefore provides extra enjoyment and practicality for basically free.
That $15,000 budget you have is definitely reasonable to find a nice driver Mk I 996 - just be patient. The search is half the fun. Go drive a bunch of them. Get to know the market.
Buy from a private owner - do not buy from a car lot. Don't be afraid of a 996 with 100,000 on the odometer IF it has been maintained properly. In addition to avoiding odometer angst, another nice thing about buying a 996 at the bottom end of the market is that you can avoid the "replace perfectly good parts before they break because, you know, someday they MIGHT break" mentality. With a $15,000 996, you drive it 'til something breaks, THEN you fix it. You of course keep up with the preventative maintenance, but you don't buy a $15,000 996 then drop the engine and spend $5,000 to replace the alphabet soup of parts (especially if you get a '99 which has the dual row IMS bearing). If you fall into the 1% of owners who have a dual row IMS bearing fail, then you sell the carcass for $6,000 and take the $9,000 hit, stay away from the casinos and move on.
06-20-2016, 12:10 PM
#51
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I still can't believe how great this community/forum is. Such great advice. Thank you for all the help and information.
Now, me being a noob I am being deluged with information as is but what are the few best places to look for a 996 (or any other model). I hate ebay and craigslist is sometimes hit or miss, is there something else out there? Also, to be 100% truthful, I don't know how to drive manual yet and the Porsche (whatever I get) will be manual for sure. So, basically, do I learn how to drive manual on that future car (poor clutch) or do I take lessons now (I am afraid that if I take lessons now and it takes me some time to find a car it will be a waste of time and money).
Also, would u recommend doing a preventative IMS bearing change (I guess with a clutch and whatever else can be done when u remove the tranny and get all the way in there to save on the labour) on 996 or boxster when I get one? I know its an expensive job and I know the engines usualy fail when they are lower milage but still piece of mind. Thanks
Thanks and forgive my noobness.
Now, me being a noob I am being deluged with information as is but what are the few best places to look for a 996 (or any other model). I hate ebay and craigslist is sometimes hit or miss, is there something else out there? Also, to be 100% truthful, I don't know how to drive manual yet and the Porsche (whatever I get) will be manual for sure. So, basically, do I learn how to drive manual on that future car (poor clutch) or do I take lessons now (I am afraid that if I take lessons now and it takes me some time to find a car it will be a waste of time and money).
Also, would u recommend doing a preventative IMS bearing change (I guess with a clutch and whatever else can be done when u remove the tranny and get all the way in there to save on the labour) on 996 or boxster when I get one? I know its an expensive job and I know the engines usualy fail when they are lower milage but still piece of mind. Thanks
Thanks and forgive my noobness.
06-20-2016, 12:19 PM
#52
I currently have a 1988 928S4 5 speed and a 1999 986. For long trips on the highway the 928 is a much better cruiser. However in your price range it is much easier to find a clean early Boxster then a clean 5 speed 928. The 2.5 Boxsters have the better dual row ims bearing that has a very low failure rate, and the 99 and up had the suspension designed to take 18" wheels so 99 is a good year to get. The 2.5 won't win that many drag races but the Boxster chassis makes up for it in the corners.
For servicing the Boxster is a bit ugly to access, the top has to be opened part way and a bunch of panels removed to get to the top of the motor. The seats have to be pulled forward and a panel behind them has to be removed to access the front of the motor. Everything else is done from underneath.
My suggestion is drive a few examples and see which ones you like best.
For servicing the Boxster is a bit ugly to access, the top has to be opened part way and a bunch of panels removed to get to the top of the motor. The seats have to be pulled forward and a panel behind them has to be removed to access the front of the motor. Everything else is done from underneath.
My suggestion is drive a few examples and see which ones you like best.
06-20-2016, 12:22 PM
#53
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I currently have a 1988 928S4 5 speed and a 1999 986. For long trips on the highway the 928 is a much better cruiser. However in your price range it is much easier to find a clean early Boxster then a clean 5 speed 928. The 2.5 Boxsters have the better dual row ims bearing that has a very low failure rate, and the 99 and up had the suspension designed to take 18" wheels so 99 is a good year to get. The 2.5 won't win that many drag races but the Boxster chassis makes up for it in the corners.
For servicing the Boxster is a bit ugly to access, the top has to be opened part way and a bunch of panels removed to get to the top of the motor. The seats have to be pulled forward and a panel behind them has to be removed to access the front of the motor. Everything else is done from underneath.
My suggestion is drive a few examples and see which ones you like best.
For servicing the Boxster is a bit ugly to access, the top has to be opened part way and a bunch of panels removed to get to the top of the motor. The seats have to be pulled forward and a panel behind them has to be removed to access the front of the motor. Everything else is done from underneath.
My suggestion is drive a few examples and see which ones you like best.
06-20-2016, 12:38 PM
#54
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Yes, they would apply as well. Regarding the early dual-row IMS, yes it was a more robust design than the small single row that followed it. It still did experience failures, but because of its design, would drop ferrous (magnetic) debris for quite a while before catastrophic failure. If you find a car with the dual row bearing, you can install an IMS Guardian as a Watch-dog for it. It's essentially a magnetic fork and when enough magnetic metallic debris is captured on the fork to connect the two tines of the fork, it triggers a warning light so you know it's time to replace the bearing before a major failure. With the Guardian installed, you could probably wait until it was time to do the clutch before replacing the bearing with the more permanent IMS Solution. With the next generation bearing, which was the same diameter as the early double-row, but a single row version (not to be confused with the larger single row used from late '05 through '08), this one would sometimes fail from start of failure to catastrophic in a very short window of time, sometimes within a single oik change so monitoring your oil filter for magnetic debris is not a good course of action for the later 996 or very early 997 motors. Dropping the oil pan during the PPI of any M96 motor (Boxster or 996) to look for plastic and metal debris outside the swirl pots areas should be considered mandatory. Plastic can either be from the chain guide rails or tensioner paddle and metal can be ferrous (bearing) or non-ferrous.
06-20-2016, 12:40 PM
#55
KCattorney nails it.
Where to buy? PCA classifieds (they have a "PCA Quest" membership that is worth considering - maybe even try a wanted ad). I found mine on Craigslist, there's a lot of dross out there from dealers or with salvage titles but there are some good cars too. Look at the Craigslist thread on here. Place a wanted ad here, too, and on 6Speed, Pelican etc once you've decided what you want.
You mention you don't currently drive a stick - if you'd be happy with a tiptronic they seem to be a little cheaper. Never had one so I can't opine on how they drive or how reliable they are.
Here's just one example for you from my local CL:
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...626078538.html - looks like a very nice car. 1999, 71xxx miles, IMS, clutch etc all done. Not viewed it but I did correspond quite a bit with the owner and was on the verge of going to see it with an envelope of cash, until I decided I wanted a C4. Been for sale a few weeks, so could be talked down a grand or two I'm sure.
TBH if you were serious I would happily go and look at this car for a fellow forum member. It looks like a good 'un.
Where to buy? PCA classifieds (they have a "PCA Quest" membership that is worth considering - maybe even try a wanted ad). I found mine on Craigslist, there's a lot of dross out there from dealers or with salvage titles but there are some good cars too. Look at the Craigslist thread on here. Place a wanted ad here, too, and on 6Speed, Pelican etc once you've decided what you want.
You mention you don't currently drive a stick - if you'd be happy with a tiptronic they seem to be a little cheaper. Never had one so I can't opine on how they drive or how reliable they are.
Here's just one example for you from my local CL:
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...626078538.html - looks like a very nice car. 1999, 71xxx miles, IMS, clutch etc all done. Not viewed it but I did correspond quite a bit with the owner and was on the verge of going to see it with an envelope of cash, until I decided I wanted a C4. Been for sale a few weeks, so could be talked down a grand or two I'm sure.
TBH if you were serious I would happily go and look at this car for a fellow forum member. It looks like a good 'un.
06-20-2016, 12:44 PM
#56
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Here's my P-car dealer shopping list.
www.racperformance.com (TX)
www.formanmotorsport.com (AZ)
www.sloancars.com (NY)
www.truspeedmotorcars.com (CA)
www.willhoitenterprises.com (MO)
www.formula1miami.com (FL)
www.victorymotorcars.com (TX)
www.nwicars.com/showroom.htm (OR)
www.chicagomotorcars.com (IL)
www.rpmsportscars.com
www.mgmsl.com
www.themiamigarage.com (FL)
www.starwoodmotors.com (TX)
www.premiersportscars.com (MO)
www.selectluxury.com (GA)
www.drivingemotions.com (FL)
www.rennlist.com
www.ecarlink.com (TX)
www.exoticclassics.com (NY)
www.pelicanparts.com
www.6speedonline.com
www.usimotors.com/porsche (TN)
www.lakenormanimports.com (NC)
www.foreigncarsitalia.com (NC)
www.ardemotorcars.com (TN)
www.musiccitymotorsports.com (TN)
www.globalmotorsportsinc.com/web/inventory (TN)
http://www.flemingsultimategarage.com/index.php (MD)
www.racperformance.com (TX)
www.formanmotorsport.com (AZ)
www.sloancars.com (NY)
www.truspeedmotorcars.com (CA)
www.willhoitenterprises.com (MO)
www.formula1miami.com (FL)
www.victorymotorcars.com (TX)
www.nwicars.com/showroom.htm (OR)
www.chicagomotorcars.com (IL)
www.rpmsportscars.com
www.mgmsl.com
www.themiamigarage.com (FL)
www.starwoodmotors.com (TX)
www.premiersportscars.com (MO)
www.selectluxury.com (GA)
www.drivingemotions.com (FL)
www.rennlist.com
www.ecarlink.com (TX)
www.exoticclassics.com (NY)
www.pelicanparts.com
www.6speedonline.com
www.usimotors.com/porsche (TN)
www.lakenormanimports.com (NC)
www.foreigncarsitalia.com (NC)
www.ardemotorcars.com (TN)
www.musiccitymotorsports.com (TN)
www.globalmotorsportsinc.com/web/inventory (TN)
http://www.flemingsultimategarage.com/index.php (MD)
06-20-2016, 12:47 PM
#57
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KCattorney nails it.
Where to buy? PCA classifieds (they have a "PCA Quest" membership that is worth considering - maybe even try a wanted ad). I found mine on Craigslist, there's a lot of dross out there from dealers or with salvage titles but there are some good cars too. Look at the Craigslist thread on here. Place a wanted ad here, too, and on 6Speed, Pelican etc once you've decided what you want.
You mention you don't currently drive a stick - if you'd be happy with a tiptronic they seem to be a little cheaper. Never had one so I can't opine on how they drive or how reliable they are.
Here's just one example for you from my local CL:
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...626078538.html - looks like a very nice car. 1999, 71xxx miles, IMS, clutch etc all done. Not viewed it but I did correspond quite a bit with the owner and was on the verge of going to see it with an envelope of cash, until I decided I wanted a C4. Been for sale a few weeks, so could be talked down a grand or two I'm sure.
TBH if you were serious I would happily go and look at this car for a fellow forum member. It looks like a good 'un.
Where to buy? PCA classifieds (they have a "PCA Quest" membership that is worth considering - maybe even try a wanted ad). I found mine on Craigslist, there's a lot of dross out there from dealers or with salvage titles but there are some good cars too. Look at the Craigslist thread on here. Place a wanted ad here, too, and on 6Speed, Pelican etc once you've decided what you want.
You mention you don't currently drive a stick - if you'd be happy with a tiptronic they seem to be a little cheaper. Never had one so I can't opine on how they drive or how reliable they are.
Here's just one example for you from my local CL:
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...626078538.html - looks like a very nice car. 1999, 71xxx miles, IMS, clutch etc all done. Not viewed it but I did correspond quite a bit with the owner and was on the verge of going to see it with an envelope of cash, until I decided I wanted a C4. Been for sale a few weeks, so could be talked down a grand or two I'm sure.
TBH if you were serious I would happily go and look at this car for a fellow forum member. It looks like a good 'un.
. Will you teach me to drive manual so that I can take it home to NY pls on a serious note I will send you a pm. Also is there a place to do a ppi before I decide? I don't mind spending a couple of hundred bucks if you look at the car and like it. Thanks!!!!
06-20-2016, 12:49 PM
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Here's my P-car dealer shopping list.
www.racperformance.com (TX)
www.formanmotorsport.com (AZ)
www.sloancars.com (NY)
www.truspeedmotorcars.com (CA)
www.willhoitenterprises.com (MO)
www.formula1miami.com (FL)
www.victorymotorcars.com (TX)
www.nwicars.com/showroom.htm (OR)
www.chicagomotorcars.com (IL)
www.rpmsportscars.com
www.mgmsl.com
www.themiamigarage.com (FL)
www.starwoodmotors.com (TX)
www.premiersportscars.com (MO)
www.selectluxury.com (GA)
www.drivingemotions.com (FL)
www.rennlist.com
www.ecarlink.com (TX)
www.exoticclassics.com (NY)
www.pelicanparts.com
www.6speedonline.com
www.usimotors.com/porsche (TN)
www.lakenormanimports.com (NC)
www.foreigncarsitalia.com (NC)
www.ardemotorcars.com (TN)
www.musiccitymotorsports.com (TN)
www.globalmotorsportsinc.com/web/inventory (TN)
http://www.flemingsultimategarage.com/index.php (MD)
www.racperformance.com (TX)
www.formanmotorsport.com (AZ)
www.sloancars.com (NY)
www.truspeedmotorcars.com (CA)
www.willhoitenterprises.com (MO)
www.formula1miami.com (FL)
www.victorymotorcars.com (TX)
www.nwicars.com/showroom.htm (OR)
www.chicagomotorcars.com (IL)
www.rpmsportscars.com
www.mgmsl.com
www.themiamigarage.com (FL)
www.starwoodmotors.com (TX)
www.premiersportscars.com (MO)
www.selectluxury.com (GA)
www.drivingemotions.com (FL)
www.rennlist.com
www.ecarlink.com (TX)
www.exoticclassics.com (NY)
www.pelicanparts.com
www.6speedonline.com
www.usimotors.com/porsche (TN)
www.lakenormanimports.com (NC)
www.foreigncarsitalia.com (NC)
www.ardemotorcars.com (TN)
www.musiccitymotorsports.com (TN)
www.globalmotorsportsinc.com/web/inventory (TN)
http://www.flemingsultimategarage.com/index.php (MD)
06-20-2016, 01:05 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Leo - You can learn to drive a manual in a few hours. Taking off from a dead stop while pointing uphill is the only difficult part. Begin with starting from a dead stop pointed downhill. That's easy and you'll have it mastered after a couple of tries. Then, try dead stop while on level ground. That should also be relatively easy. Then, dead stop while on a very slight incline. Then, dead stop while on a bigger incline. Then, you practice taking off from a dead stop with a steep incline. To add realism, find a semi-truck to pull in right behind you and lay on the horn while you are practicing. Hint - the hand brake is your best friend when taking off from a steep incline.
Also, the "alphabet soup" I was referring to earlier was the IMS bearing, the RMS, AOS, etc. No, if I purchased a $15,000 '99 996 with a dual row IMS bearing, I would not spend another $3,500 or $4,000 doing a preventative IMS bearing change along with all of the other WYAIT (while you are in there) parts. You just drive it 'til it breaks. About a 1% chance of that happening with the dual row IMS bearing.
Also, the "alphabet soup" I was referring to earlier was the IMS bearing, the RMS, AOS, etc. No, if I purchased a $15,000 '99 996 with a dual row IMS bearing, I would not spend another $3,500 or $4,000 doing a preventative IMS bearing change along with all of the other WYAIT (while you are in there) parts. You just drive it 'til it breaks. About a 1% chance of that happening with the dual row IMS bearing.