My 3.6 to 4.0 Project
07-30-2015, 01:58 PM
#31
The biggest thing you'll gain is low end torque and quite a bit of power/tq "under the curve" where it really counts. I wouldn't really sweat any peak power numbers unless you wanna go mainly for bragging rights.
07-30-2015, 02:42 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
07-30-2015, 05:03 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
07-30-2015, 05:04 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
07-30-2015, 05:18 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
07-30-2015, 06:53 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
07-31-2015, 10:41 AM
#43
Former Vendor
It doesn't take us 1 year to build an engine. The processes take 4 months; we need someone's car for 4 months. I maintain a 10-14 month backlog and turnaround time. Those doing an elective build are without their cars for 4 months, those with failures are without them for the duration of my backlog period. I will not rush. We will not accept payments and charge people extra for an expedited build, because you can only rush failure, not success. One pair of hands and one mind does the entire project here, from extraction to disassembly, to evaluation and machining and balancing all the way through reassembly, re installation and testing. Only after a vehicle is running again does a second person enter the equation.
I do not accept engines that come to me disassembled. I do not accept engines without their vehicles. I do extend 100% free engine extraction and installation to every customer in exchange for them shipping their car to me. This is why I have vehicles here from 28 states right now. I operate like this for everyone's benefit. Especially the guy who had an aftermarket bumper that would have killed my engine, because it led to 25 degree hotter coolant temps than it should have. The same goes for the guy with a failing fuel pump that took out his old engine (leaned out and detonated to death) and would have taken out mine, had I not had the car and tested the whole equation. I found those, and countless other gripes only because I personally evaluate these vehicles and give them a work out on the street and the dyno.
One missed step in this industry costs someone their entire reputation. I trust no one else to install and fire my engines up the first time. Doing this costs me a lot of money every year, but I don't care. It's required. I can't blame anything on anyone, if we have a failure. We do it all, everytime, and that's why we don't have failures. In testing I have complications all the time, and that's normal and expected. We solve those before a car ships. Last week I tested 5 cars, of those, 3 had gripes, one had to come back apart and 1 was perfect. Fast forward to today and all the gripes are solved and 3 of the cars are already home. The one that had to come back apart is back together and I'll test it on Monday.
Now, I just needed to say those things, because of the recommendations that others had made. This thread isn't about me, it's about the person who wants to build a 4.0 properly.
Bigger is seldom better. To feed the 101 bore requires some serious port work. Without doing this work the power range is narrowed a great deal.
The same goes for camshafts, if you keep stock cams, the alteration of their timing set up is required to optimize the power band and broaden it. To do this the reluctor wheels on the cams must be removed and rephased also. If you go too far, you'll make less power than stock, or crash valves to Pistons. Better yet, the ECU will throw you to limp mode because it thinks the cam timing is off and out of range..
Yes you could just bolt it together. Lots do. The devil is in the details and the bigger it is, the more the details equal the big picture.
With a 4.0 I usually net 325-360 at the wheels on my dyno jet. Once other people could build a 4.0 I abandoned its further development and left it where it was power wise.
With my 4.1 we've finally broken into the low 400s for wheel HP, but my destroker 3.6 isn't far behind. 4.4 is now where I have gone, but the only way to feed it is with CNC heads.
Everything is dependent upon everything else.
Going bigger because it costs the same isn't accurate, because that may apply to the displacement, but it damn sure doesn't apply to the assembly and component selection/ set up differences.
Yes, I have a two day class that tells you part for part what to do and how to build that combo.
There are many ways to skin a cat, but doe are better than others.
I do not accept engines that come to me disassembled. I do not accept engines without their vehicles. I do extend 100% free engine extraction and installation to every customer in exchange for them shipping their car to me. This is why I have vehicles here from 28 states right now. I operate like this for everyone's benefit. Especially the guy who had an aftermarket bumper that would have killed my engine, because it led to 25 degree hotter coolant temps than it should have. The same goes for the guy with a failing fuel pump that took out his old engine (leaned out and detonated to death) and would have taken out mine, had I not had the car and tested the whole equation. I found those, and countless other gripes only because I personally evaluate these vehicles and give them a work out on the street and the dyno.
One missed step in this industry costs someone their entire reputation. I trust no one else to install and fire my engines up the first time. Doing this costs me a lot of money every year, but I don't care. It's required. I can't blame anything on anyone, if we have a failure. We do it all, everytime, and that's why we don't have failures. In testing I have complications all the time, and that's normal and expected. We solve those before a car ships. Last week I tested 5 cars, of those, 3 had gripes, one had to come back apart and 1 was perfect. Fast forward to today and all the gripes are solved and 3 of the cars are already home. The one that had to come back apart is back together and I'll test it on Monday.
Now, I just needed to say those things, because of the recommendations that others had made. This thread isn't about me, it's about the person who wants to build a 4.0 properly.
Bigger is seldom better. To feed the 101 bore requires some serious port work. Without doing this work the power range is narrowed a great deal.
The same goes for camshafts, if you keep stock cams, the alteration of their timing set up is required to optimize the power band and broaden it. To do this the reluctor wheels on the cams must be removed and rephased also. If you go too far, you'll make less power than stock, or crash valves to Pistons. Better yet, the ECU will throw you to limp mode because it thinks the cam timing is off and out of range..
Yes you could just bolt it together. Lots do. The devil is in the details and the bigger it is, the more the details equal the big picture.
With a 4.0 I usually net 325-360 at the wheels on my dyno jet. Once other people could build a 4.0 I abandoned its further development and left it where it was power wise.
With my 4.1 we've finally broken into the low 400s for wheel HP, but my destroker 3.6 isn't far behind. 4.4 is now where I have gone, but the only way to feed it is with CNC heads.
Everything is dependent upon everything else.
Going bigger because it costs the same isn't accurate, because that may apply to the displacement, but it damn sure doesn't apply to the assembly and component selection/ set up differences.
Yes, I have a two day class that tells you part for part what to do and how to build that combo.
There are many ways to skin a cat, but doe are better than others.
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 07-31-2015 at 11:06 AM.
07-31-2015, 11:21 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
hmm mm. ...
that isn't the information I got when I asked about my heads/cams with a 4.0 block. I was told that it would be pretty much plug and play. after reading your post, does not sound like that at all. I have emails here from LNE saying the ECU will handle the change in displacement and I won't require mods to my heads/cams for this up in displacement.
sounds like I should find someone who can tune this now once it is buttoned back together.
fun, fun. I'll be signing up for the September course...
that isn't the information I got when I asked about my heads/cams with a 4.0 block. I was told that it would be pretty much plug and play. after reading your post, does not sound like that at all. I have emails here from LNE saying the ECU will handle the change in displacement and I won't require mods to my heads/cams for this up in displacement.
sounds like I should find someone who can tune this now once it is buttoned back together.
fun, fun. I'll be signing up for the September course...
07-31-2015, 11:27 AM
#45
Former Vendor
No, you received the correct info. The engine will run and won't throw CEL or give any electronic issues. It will not be optimized, unless it is built from a well rounded point of view.
You do not HAVE to do the head work, or cam work, unless you want to see the true benefits of all the added displacement. I am less on "tuning" of an ECU than I am the other mechanicals of the work. The ECU tune depends on what all the other items inside dictate.
The biggest mechanical challenge to assembling the 101 bore comes from the fish scale setting of the oil ring tension. Thats the only item that will dictate an end result. Remember, all these items are set up for pro installation, but don't feel bad, most pros don't know how to fish scale, either.
Yes, this is exactly what I go over in the M96/ M97 Performance Class, along with Charles Navarro from LN, and other industry specialists that are speakers in the class, on the topics of cylinder heads, ECU Tuning, and even engine oil.
Size alone dictates nothing.
You do not HAVE to do the head work, or cam work, unless you want to see the true benefits of all the added displacement. I am less on "tuning" of an ECU than I am the other mechanicals of the work. The ECU tune depends on what all the other items inside dictate.
The biggest mechanical challenge to assembling the 101 bore comes from the fish scale setting of the oil ring tension. Thats the only item that will dictate an end result. Remember, all these items are set up for pro installation, but don't feel bad, most pros don't know how to fish scale, either.
Yes, this is exactly what I go over in the M96/ M97 Performance Class, along with Charles Navarro from LN, and other industry specialists that are speakers in the class, on the topics of cylinder heads, ECU Tuning, and even engine oil.
Size alone dictates nothing.