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The LN critic in 233 above has 25 posts to measure his knowledge of the M96 IMSB issue. How does that compare to the combined experience,knowledge and judgement of LN and Flat Six. ? I am an engineer who worked in engine development for a car company. Frankly ,I am humbled by the knowledge and skill of Charles.Jake and Baz. Post 233 is smarter than all of them ?
I have not bought anything from either company but through my own engine failure in similar circumstances to the OP, the LN+Flat 6 advice was flawless ,generous and unbelievably patient-even after I (foolishly)bought and fitted a competitors product .
. I challenged some of their suggestions but did it in the context of - I'm just curious - why is that ? We all learned about the M96 with that approach.
Post 233 above and others who piled on (in other Threads) is part of the reason we 'lost' Charles and Jake from this Forum. With their departure, their knowledge was lost also. The problem may be just one of poor expression perhaps ? Post 233 and others like it can be read as implying that LN and Flat Six are fools/thieves/other epithets. If that is incorrect , maybe the 233 needs to be modified ? At least note it is largely speculation ! Post 233 might have been useful if the poster had a more inquiring approach.
We haven’t lost Charles Navarro, and Jake/Jud still checks in from time to time. He just doesn’t get caught up in the bs. There’s still plenty of good info to be gleaned here - especially if you’ve been around long enough to know the difference between internet lore and reality. There will always be skeptics, and that’s actually a good thing. The danger is when skepticism becomes “truth” (without any corroberating evidence- sound familiar?). I think at the very least, 233 should have installed Pedro’s DOF with his off the shelf SKF bearing...
Quite a strong set of replies to my post – which I kind of expected. My apologies for the slow response, I’m in Australia and most of your replies were posted while I was asleep! And this is another lengthy post – sorry again!
I’ve attached below a photo (not the best quality, sorry!) of my still intact LNE IMS bearing, showing one ball with surface pitting and cracks. The purpose of my post wasn’t to dispute that the original shop which did the OP’s IMS bearing replacement possibly performed a poor job, but to point out that newly-appearing debris may be entirely unconnected with an earlier bearing job – that is, it can be the quality of the bearing which is at fault, not necessarily the quality of the past job.
The ‘to what end’ question is simply to present an alternative view based on actual evidence of a manufacturing defect in an LNE bearing so not everyone with similar symptoms in the future need immediately rush to tear down their entire engine – at least, not before examining and ruling out the new bearing as the cause of the problem.
Obviously, I’m talking from a perspective of a sample of one – my own bearing, in my own car. Obviously, so was the OP. Jake’s view, based on hundreds of failed motors, is different. However, even though my sample is much smaller than Jake’s, my experience is valid because that’s what actually occurred in my case. While no longer possible, it perhaps would have been interesting in hindsight to have an independent assessment of the state of the OP’s LNE bearing simply to determine how that bearing happened to be shedding so much metal. If it was wear from metal particles in the oil, then you’d expect to see some fairly uniform abrasion across all race surfaces in contact with the ceramic ***** I would guess. Such damage may well confirm the need to pull the engine apart.
As an interesting aside, my bearing, which I suspect had been deteriorating from that failed ceramic ball for at least 6,000 miles, showed no wear at all in the adjacent unaffected race. It therefore seemed surprising to me that Jake would have rushed in with his conclusion that the LNE bearing was wearing out due to some (almost certainly very low) amount of small particles from the original failed bearing circulating in the oil from the original bearing job – even before the bearing was inspected. My (again, limited) experience showed that metallic debris in the oil (right inside the bearing in fact) doesn’t necessarily damage a bearing race like a pitted hard ceramic ball can!
So how many LNE hybrid bearings might fail like mine? I very much doubt my experience is an isolated one, given that in every x ceramic ***** made, some percentage might have a similar defect which is hidden until some point in time or mileage in the future. I could only guess that this number would be small. However, in terms of real-world experience, Jake might be the only person who would know for sure. What was interesting in this thread was that a defective bearing was barely considered as a possible cause (and in fact a cause actively discounted by Jake and others).
Nutty Professor: Yes I think I must have read every post on every forum about IMS replacement by now. I changed out the LNE bearing on my engine myself, and saw first-hand the looseness of the bearing on the spindle, and then found the cause (one race was worn away to the extent that spinning the bearing was exceptionally rough). Finding the one ceramic ball with a failed surface was pretty definitive - and definitely not rocket science, although the ball does look a little like the surface of the moon ;-). To respond to your point, I didn’t “conclude” that the OP’s bearing failed in the same way mine did, just surmised that it could have been possible based on his description of his symptoms, and how similar they were to mine.
“All other IMS retrofit products have a replacement interval. That doesn’t mean it is a defective product.” Of course, in general that is absolutely true. In my case, only one ceramic ball suffered from an apparent manufacturing defect. The other 17 ***** were perfect. The other race in the bearing unit was perfect. If that one ball hadn’t failed, I am confident that the LNE bearing unit would have lasted the life of the car. In my case, yes, the product was actually defective. How long that one ball lasted until it started cracking and pitting I have no real idea. It may have started to deteriorate long before it started to abrade the steel race for all I know.
Schnell: Yes, my small number of posts means I’m most certainly not an ‘expert’ and I’m not claiming more expertise than others on this or other forums. I simply have particular experience of a failed bearing which may or may not apply to other cases. My only message is to suggest that others with similar symptoms check the IMS bearing – regardless of it being a LNE bearing or otherwise – as a first step to determine if and how it is failing. Especially so, given there’s no disagreement that whatever the cause of its failure, the LNE bearing in the OP’s engine was the source of the new steel debris he was finding.
OP- thanks for responding, glad to hear you’re still enjoying your car! I realise that the points I picked up would not necessarily be definitive as to the cause of your engine’s distress. However, they did follow a chronological ‘discovery’ and included early assumptions which other owners with similar symptoms might also be considering.
Dporto – this is probably not the thread to get into (yet another) discussion on which kind of IMS bearing is the best. I happen to agree entirely with LNE’s use of a ball bearing unit with one seal removed. Certainly, in my case of my LNE bearing, the simple act of removing the outward-facing seal seemed to provide the bearing with completely adequate lubrication (if lubrication was inadequate I’d expected to have seen some kind of wear across other ceramic *****, and in the other race). I accordingly removed the outer seal from the SKF bearing I replaced it with. The other very beneficial outcome of not having that seal is that debris is washed out of the bearing – and into the sump and oil filter – as soon as wear starts to occur (in contrast to the standard bearing which traps debris until one or both seals finally give way, which would probably be at the point of complete bearing failure).
Lastly, any scepticism I’m belatedly injecting into this long-dormant thread is only to challenge some assertions and opinions that don’t necessarily look to the immediate and obvious sources of a problem. All I did in my case was first check the obvious source of the debris, and regardless of reputation or supposed longevity or how superbly or not it was installed in the first place, the cause was the bearing itself. In my case, perhaps not what popular or ‘expert’ opinion might have suggested it to be. YMMV.
Nutty Professor: Yes I think I must have read every post on every forum about IMS replacement by now. I changed out the LNE bearing on my engine myself, and saw first-hand the looseness of the bearing on the spindle, and then found the cause (one race was worn away to the extent that spinning the bearing was exceptionally rough). Finding the one ceramic ball with a failed surface was pretty definitive - and definitely not rocket science, although the ball does look a little like the surface of the moon ;-). To respond to your point, I didn’t “conclude” that the OP’s bearing failed in the same way mine did, just surmised that it could have been possible based on his description of his symptoms, and how similar they were to mine.
“All other IMS retrofit products have a replacement interval. That doesn’t mean it is a defective product.” Of course, in general that is absolutely true. In my case, only one ceramic ball suffered from an apparent manufacturing defect. The other 17 ***** were perfect. The other race in the bearing unit was perfect. If that one ball hadn’t failed, I am confident that the LNE bearing unit would have lasted the life of the car. In my case, yes, the product was actually defective. How long that one ball lasted until it started cracking and pitting I have no real idea. It may have started to deteriorate long before it started to abrade the steel race for all I know.
Thank you for replying and I must admit, I enjoy a healthy debate as long as civility is maintained. That being said, in order for us to "see" your side, (no pun intended) we need you to take high resolution photographs of the dissembled ball bearings. Do you still have the IMS bearing or was it kept by the shop? It would also be helpful for your argument that the bearing be dissembled on video. That would remove any doubt of bias. I understand if that's not possible, especially if you didn't retain the bearing. A certified shop would have returned the bearing to LN.
Questions -
1. Did you have the LN bearing installed on that car?
2. If so, how many miles on the LN before you had it swapped out?
"Dporto – this is probably not the thread to get into (yet another) discussion on which kind of IMS bearing is the best. I happen to agree entirely with LNE’s use of a ball bearing unit with one seal removed. Certainly, in my case of my LNE bearing, the simple act of removing the outward-facing seal seemed to provide the bearing with completely adequate lubrication (if lubrication was inadequate I’d expected to have seen some kind of wear across other ceramic *****, and in the other race). I accordingly removed the outer seal from the SKF bearing I replaced it with. The other very beneficial outcome of not having that seal is that debris is washed out of the bearing – and into the sump and oil filter – as soon as wear starts to occur (in contrast to the standard bearing which traps debris until one or both seals finally give way, which would probably be at the point of complete bearing failure)."
You are correct - it's been discussed ad-nauseum, and the consensus is that the best replacement is a "plain bearing" (IMS Solution) and the second best are the hybrid retrofits that need replacement at specific intervals (time or milage). The fact that you had a hybrid bearing go bad, doesn't change this. It seems that regardless of the bearing (you used), if there is debris laden oil in your engine (unless your entire engine is adequately cleaned - cases split and cleaned ultrasonically) your bearing will fail prematurely. This has happened time and time again (even though you don't hear about it often as most of the people who go this route feel foolish in hindsight) and will continue to happen when debris laden engines aren't properly cleaned prior to bearing replacement.
Can't tell you how many times, I've seen these types of ads in Craigslist over the last few years. Bet the owner of this car didn't think to report back to Rennlist! This is the second one I've seen today. Folks, don't bury you head in the sand and think the IMS problem is a myth.
Thanks to Jake, my 996 engine has IMS Solution, billet steel rods, higher strength timing chains, and improved valve seats. He hit all the top risk items of this engine in one shot. This thing should last until Armageddon.
Thanks to Jake, my 996 engine has IMS Solution, billet steel rods, higher strength timing chains, and improved valve seats. He hit all the top risk items of this engine in one shot. This thing should last until Armageddon.
Sorry if I missed it, but can I ask what you had FSI build for you? 3.8? 4.0? Really interested to know how the motor feels when you get it back.
Sorry if I missed it, but can I ask what you had FSI build for you? 3.8? 4.0? Really interested to know how the motor feels when you get it back.
No change to the pistons, just repairing the damage and adding robustness items. Also other likely maintenance items like water pump, AOS, and a host of other small things. So, it feels about the same, a little better midrange torque due to the improved valve seats but IMHO hard to notice. Note this was over 4 years ago now.
Sorry if I missed it, but can I ask what you had FSI build for you? 3.8? 4.0? Really interested to know how the motor feels when you get it back.
Mike has had the car back for a few years now. He did not opt for a "Performer" engine, so increased power was not an objective.
Our program has evolved a lot since Mike's car was processed here. We no longer accept jobs like his, nor do we carry out any engine repairs. This place operates like a factory these days.
Quite a strong set of replies to my post – which I kind of expected. My apologies for the slow response, I’m in Australia and most of your replies were posted while I was asleep! And this is another lengthy post – sorry again!
I’ve attached below a photo (not the best quality, sorry!) of my still intact LNE IMS bearing, showing one ball with surface pitting and cracks. The purpose of my post wasn’t to dispute that the original shop which did the OP’s IMS bearing replacement possibly performed a poor job, but to point out that newly-appearing debris may be entirely unconnected with an earlier bearing job – that is, it can be the quality of the bearing which is at fault, not necessarily the quality of the past job.
The ‘to what end’ question is simply to present an alternative view based on actual evidence of a manufacturing defect in an LNE bearing so not everyone with similar symptoms in the future need immediately rush to tear down their entire engine – at least, not before examining and ruling out the new bearing as the cause of the problem.
Obviously, I’m talking from a perspective of a sample of one – my own bearing, in my own car. Obviously, so was the OP. Jake’s view, based on hundreds of failed motors, is different. However, even though my sample is much smaller than Jake’s, my experience is valid because that’s what actually occurred in my case. While no longer possible, it perhaps would have been interesting in hindsight to have an independent assessment of the state of the OP’s LNE bearing simply to determine how that bearing happened to be shedding so much metal. If it was wear from metal particles in the oil, then you’d expect to see some fairly uniform abrasion across all race surfaces in contact with the ceramic ***** I would guess. Such damage may well confirm the need to pull the engine apart.
As an interesting aside, my bearing, which I suspect had been deteriorating from that failed ceramic ball for at least 6,000 miles, showed no wear at all in the adjacent unaffected race. It therefore seemed surprising to me that Jake would have rushed in with his conclusion that the LNE bearing was wearing out due to some (almost certainly very low) amount of small particles from the original failed bearing circulating in the oil from the original bearing job – even before the bearing was inspected. My (again, limited) experience showed that metallic debris in the oil (right inside the bearing in fact) doesn’t necessarily damage a bearing race like a pitted hard ceramic ball can!
So how many LNE hybrid bearings might fail like mine? I very much doubt my experience is an isolated one, given that in every x ceramic ***** made, some percentage might have a similar defect which is hidden until some point in time or mileage in the future. I could only guess that this number would be small. However, in terms of real-world experience, Jake might be the only person who would know for sure. What was interesting in this thread was that a defective bearing was barely considered as a possible cause (and in fact a cause actively discounted by Jake and others).
Nutty Professor: Yes I think I must have read every post on every forum about IMS replacement by now. I changed out the LNE bearing on my engine myself, and saw first-hand the looseness of the bearing on the spindle, and then found the cause (one race was worn away to the extent that spinning the bearing was exceptionally rough). Finding the one ceramic ball with a failed surface was pretty definitive - and definitely not rocket science, although the ball does look a little like the surface of the moon ;-). To respond to your point, I didn’t “conclude” that the OP’s bearing failed in the same way mine did, just surmised that it could have been possible based on his description of his symptoms, and how similar they were to mine.
“All other IMS retrofit products have a replacement interval. That doesn’t mean it is a defective product.” Of course, in general that is absolutely true. In my case, only one ceramic ball suffered from an apparent manufacturing defect. The other 17 ***** were perfect. The other race in the bearing unit was perfect. If that one ball hadn’t failed, I am confident that the LNE bearing unit would have lasted the life of the car. In my case, yes, the product was actually defective. How long that one ball lasted until it started cracking and pitting I have no real idea. It may have started to deteriorate long before it started to abrade the steel race for all I know.
Schnell: Yes, my small number of posts means I’m most certainly not an ‘expert’ and I’m not claiming more expertise than others on this or other forums. I simply have particular experience of a failed bearing which may or may not apply to other cases. My only message is to suggest that others with similar symptoms check the IMS bearing – regardless of it being a LNE bearing or otherwise – as a first step to determine if and how it is failing. Especially so, given there’s no disagreement that whatever the cause of its failure, the LNE bearing in the OP’s engine was the source of the new steel debris he was finding.
OP- thanks for responding, glad to hear you’re still enjoying your car! I realise that the points I picked up would not necessarily be definitive as to the cause of your engine’s distress. However, they did follow a chronological ‘discovery’ and included early assumptions which other owners with similar symptoms might also be considering.
Dporto – this is probably not the thread to get into (yet another) discussion on which kind of IMS bearing is the best. I happen to agree entirely with LNE’s use of a ball bearing unit with one seal removed. Certainly, in my case of my LNE bearing, the simple act of removing the outward-facing seal seemed to provide the bearing with completely adequate lubrication (if lubrication was inadequate I’d expected to have seen some kind of wear across other ceramic *****, and in the other race). I accordingly removed the outer seal from the SKF bearing I replaced it with. The other very beneficial outcome of not having that seal is that debris is washed out of the bearing – and into the sump and oil filter – as soon as wear starts to occur (in contrast to the standard bearing which traps debris until one or both seals finally give way, which would probably be at the point of complete bearing failure).
Lastly, any scepticism I’m belatedly injecting into this long-dormant thread is only to challenge some assertions and opinions that don’t necessarily look to the immediate and obvious sources of a problem. All I did in my case was first check the obvious source of the debris, and regardless of reputation or supposed longevity or how superbly or not it was installed in the first place, the cause was the bearing itself. In my case, perhaps not what popular or ‘expert’ opinion might have suggested it to be. YMMV.
Sorry, but that is a stock bearing in the photo shown. You can tell as the ball is shiny, chrome colored, and also we never used a factory style cage on our bearings. Lastly, all our races, both early and late, have easily identifiable markings that make clear the origin of the bearing.
Long story short, I was skeptical this was one of our bearings having failed and the photo proves it. Ceramic ***** are dark grey, almost black, and cannot pit or crack.
Mike has had the car back for a few years now. He did not opt for a "Performer" engine, so increased power was not an objective.
Our program has evolved a lot since Mike's car was processed here. We no longer accept jobs like his, nor do we carry out any engine repairs. This place operates like a factory these days.
Thanks Jake. Would love to have one of your engines in my 996. Maybe one day....
"Sorry, but that is a stock bearing in the photo shown. You can tell as the ball is shiny, chrome colored, and also we never used a factory style cage on our bearings. Lastly, all our races, both early and late, have easily identifiable markings that make clear the origin of the bearing.
Long story short, I was skeptical this was one of our bearings having failed and the photo proves it. Ceramic ***** are dark grey, almost black, and cannot pit or crack."
If no debris was detected in previous oil changes and now appears, why we should assume that they are from a previous deffective IMS? For me, the right assumption is that that debris is from an actual failure (i dont know if IMS or not) after the track day.
If it is form the IMS, the question should be, why it has failed so soon.
People should check themselves before pointing fingers.
No Classic Dual Row IMS Retrofit Bearing has steel *****, further the groove on the OD of the bearing in the poto posted by the “plantiff” clearly shows a groove machined to accept the stock Porsche IMS bearing “internal wire lock”. This is also a feature that the Classic Dual Row has never had, as it uses a spiral lock to be retained into the engine, not an internal wire lock.
Put simply, the complaint is concerning a factory IMS Bearing, so it appears someone has lied to someone, and lots of people have been targeted, and accused of things for no reason. This is what pisses me off about these foums, and makes me want to burn my whole facility to the ground, and walk away.
Forum, police your own, else you’ll lose valuable input from people being falsely accused for developing, and supplying “junk”.
Jake Raby
People should check themselves before pointing fingers.
No Classic Dual Row IMS Retrofit Bearing has steel *****, further the groove on the OD of the bearing in the poto posted by the “plantiff” clearly shows a groove machined to accept the stock Porsche IMS bearing “internal wire lock”. This is also a feature that the Classic Dual Row has never had, as it uses a spiral lock to be retained into the engine, not an internal wire lock.
Put simply, the complaint is concerning a factory IMS Bearing, so it appears someone has lied to someone, and lots of people have been targeted, and accused of things for no reason. This is what pisses me off about these foums, and makes me want to burn my whole facility to the ground, and walk away.
Forum, police your own, else you’ll lose valuable input from people being falsely accused for developing, and supplying “junk”.
Jake Raby
I am new in this forum but I see that you are really upset and tired of this discussions
11-14-2018, 01:20 PM
