Which is faster, 996.2 (C2) or 997.1 (C4)?
01-08-2013, 07:33 PM
#31
As promised ...
I’ve also been looking up laptimes online, and while I haven’t quite answered my question, I have reached some helpful conclusions, which I thought I’d share:
1. For every water cooled Porsche, it seems pretty clear that 4wd cars are faster than their 2wd equivalents on short tracks, and a lot slower on the Nurburgring, though the Nurburgring gap seems to be decreasing (at least from 996.1 to 996.2). I’d guess that the 2wd cars are generally faster on tracks where their lap time is above ~1m40s, which is actually not that short. (Though what matters is probably not just the total length of the track, but also the number of curves (or similarly, the average distance between curves) and the width.)
2. PASM is worth about 5 seconds at the Ring on the 997.1 (according to Porsche). I’m guessing the difference is proportionally smaller on smoother tracks – except maybe where you use rough curbing at every entry, exit, and apex.
3. And yes, Walter Rohl is also worth a few seconds :- ) . Apparently 6 seconds versus von Saurma in the 997.1 C2S with sport suspension and LSD.
4. And here’s an intriguing one. The 997.1 (C2S) is faster with the sport suspension (20mm lower, with LSD) than with PASM. By 3 seconds at the Ring.
So where does this leave me? Let’s see. I’m now pretty sure the 997.1 C2 Rohl drove at the Ring didn’t have PASM. Add PASM, and it could do ~8m10. Add 4wd and it can do 8m16, at best. Take out Walter Rohl, then 8m20 – 8m22, at best. Versus 8m17 for the 996.2. Problem solved then? Not quite. Remove the sport suspension from the 996.2 and ... . Well, how bad could it be? The sport suspension is probably worth less than 4 seconds (seems to me the difference in ride quality is no bigger than between PASM normal and sport settings, which make a 3 second difference, and 4 seconds is a lot for a suspension change that doesn’t have too much impact on comfort or height). So we have 996.2 with 8m21 or better, and 997.1 C4 with 8m20 – 8m22 or worse. Advantage 996. Probably.
But on most tracks, the numbers improve for the C4, and on short tracks, the C4 is probably a lot faster ...
I’ve also been looking up laptimes online, and while I haven’t quite answered my question, I have reached some helpful conclusions, which I thought I’d share:
1. For every water cooled Porsche, it seems pretty clear that 4wd cars are faster than their 2wd equivalents on short tracks, and a lot slower on the Nurburgring, though the Nurburgring gap seems to be decreasing (at least from 996.1 to 996.2). I’d guess that the 2wd cars are generally faster on tracks where their lap time is above ~1m40s, which is actually not that short. (Though what matters is probably not just the total length of the track, but also the number of curves (or similarly, the average distance between curves) and the width.)
2. PASM is worth about 5 seconds at the Ring on the 997.1 (according to Porsche). I’m guessing the difference is proportionally smaller on smoother tracks – except maybe where you use rough curbing at every entry, exit, and apex.
3. And yes, Walter Rohl is also worth a few seconds :- ) . Apparently 6 seconds versus von Saurma in the 997.1 C2S with sport suspension and LSD.
4. And here’s an intriguing one. The 997.1 (C2S) is faster with the sport suspension (20mm lower, with LSD) than with PASM. By 3 seconds at the Ring.
So where does this leave me? Let’s see. I’m now pretty sure the 997.1 C2 Rohl drove at the Ring didn’t have PASM. Add PASM, and it could do ~8m10. Add 4wd and it can do 8m16, at best. Take out Walter Rohl, then 8m20 – 8m22, at best. Versus 8m17 for the 996.2. Problem solved then? Not quite. Remove the sport suspension from the 996.2 and ... . Well, how bad could it be? The sport suspension is probably worth less than 4 seconds (seems to me the difference in ride quality is no bigger than between PASM normal and sport settings, which make a 3 second difference, and 4 seconds is a lot for a suspension change that doesn’t have too much impact on comfort or height). So we have 996.2 with 8m21 or better, and 997.1 C4 with 8m20 – 8m22 or worse. Advantage 996. Probably.
But on most tracks, the numbers improve for the C4, and on short tracks, the C4 is probably a lot faster ...
01-08-2013, 08:14 PM
#32
Don't really understand your logic on why you're so caught up on lap times but whatever your method to your madness, I hope you can decide on a car.
I recommend you watch an old episode of Top Gear where Jeremy compares the "new" 997 to the 996. I think you'll find it hilarious.
I recommend you watch an old episode of Top Gear where Jeremy compares the "new" 997 to the 996. I think you'll find it hilarious.
01-08-2013, 08:40 PM
#33
Rat Balls
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Don't really understand your logic on why you're so caught up on lap times but whatever your method to your madness, I hope you can decide on a car.
I recommend you watch an old episode of Top Gear where Jeremy compares the "new" 997 to the 996. I think you'll find it hilarious.
I recommend you watch an old episode of Top Gear where Jeremy compares the "new" 997 to the 996. I think you'll find it hilarious.
01-08-2013, 09:59 PM
#34
The single best most cost-effective thing that you (or anyone) can do to make a given car faster around a track is education, i.e. a driving course. The more the merrier. The car is somewhat irrelevant.
A standard 996 with a very good driver is very likely going to be faster (and safer) around most racetracks/cloverleaf-overpasses/winding roads than the average weekend warrior in their GT2/3/Turbo/whatever that can plant their foot on the Go-pedal on a straight but then really does not understand the car in the corners since their only driving education was given by their gym coach in 10th grade and whatever they picked up watching LeMans on TV.
Seen it over and over again. It's especially fun to watch when you see a run group out there where everyone is popping off about how great they are or they show up all Nomex'd up etc. and then an instructor goes out there in whatever rental car they got at the airport or takes an underpowered POS and runs with them or off into the distance.
Get the car YOU like best and be done with it.
01-08-2013, 10:19 PM
#35
For the vast majority of drivers all of these numbers don't mean a damned. I've seen 996TTs passed by 944s at track days. Driver skill and experience is the ultimate determiner of lap time. Everything else is armchair racing...
01-08-2013, 10:28 PM
#36
I dont see how this point can be made any further. The horse has been beaten enough post mortem. Its obvious this is just some kid with nothing better to do.
Last edited by KrazyK; 11-20-2014 at 06:25 PM.
01-13-2013, 04:35 PM
#37
I dont see how this point can be made any further. The horse has been beaten enough post mortem. "
KrazyK, thanks for your "helpful" post. Don't worry, I won't take it personally, because it's obvious (and also from another of your posts on this thread), that you're not paying much attention to what I've written. A suggestion however: Next time you have trouble understanding what another forum member us asking about or why, why not PM them and ask?
Its obvious this is just some kid with nothing better to do[emphasis added].
And why exactly did you write this post?[/I]
KrazyK, thanks for your "helpful" post. Don't worry, I won't take it personally, because it's obvious (and also from another of your posts on this thread), that you're not paying much attention to what I've written. A suggestion however: Next time you have trouble understanding what another forum member us asking about or why, why not PM them and ask?
Its obvious this is just some kid with nothing better to do[emphasis added].
And why exactly did you write this post?[/I]
01-13-2013, 04:48 PM
#38
WalterRohrl and rpm's S2, thanks for your posts.
WalterRohrl, you began by quoting my words: "(Alas, there aren't too many Porsches at track days I attend that aren't turbos, GT3s, or GT2s, so my experience doesn't help in my case.)" And then continued:
So I fear I may have been a bit unclear. When I wrote my "experience doesn't help", I meant it doesn't help me know how the 996 and 997 compare, because there aren't enough people driving normal 996s and 997s at local track events for me to have a good feel for how fast they are.
The value of training, education, etc. are all very clear, and I'm sure this will be helpful insight for many readers of this forum. I've done some, and look forward to more. However, if the 997 is, say, 2 seconds faster around the typical 3 mile/5 km track, then I'm probably going to be significantly faster in the 997 than I would be in the 996. That's what I want to know, because if it is not significatly faster, then I'm not willing to pay much extra. And therefore ...
WalterRohrl, you began by quoting my words: "(Alas, there aren't too many Porsches at track days I attend that aren't turbos, GT3s, or GT2s, so my experience doesn't help in my case.)" And then continued:
The value of training, education, etc. are all very clear, and I'm sure this will be helpful insight for many readers of this forum. I've done some, and look forward to more. However, if the 997 is, say, 2 seconds faster around the typical 3 mile/5 km track, then I'm probably going to be significantly faster in the 997 than I would be in the 996. That's what I want to know, because if it is not significatly faster, then I'm not willing to pay much extra. And therefore ...
Last edited by rs10; 01-13-2013 at 05:03 PM.
01-13-2013, 05:01 PM
#39
... Thanks everyone for sharing many helpful insights! Based on what I've learned here and elsewhere, I've concluded that the 997.1 C4 is probably not significantly faster than the 996.2 on what in my mind are typical tracks (~3 miles / 5 km long). I will therefore focus on 996s, unless I find a great deal on a 997.
However, if anyone else has the kind of track experience that enables comparing these cars and disagrees with my conclusion, please let us all know!
Thanks again!
However, if anyone else has the kind of track experience that enables comparing these cars and disagrees with my conclusion, please let us all know!
Thanks again!
