digitalsam

After starting my 2003 C4S about 2 weeks ago I got a CEL. I immediately took it to my independent Porsche shop. The fault codes:

P1325 Inlet Camshaft Bank 2 - Signal Implausible.
P0300, P0304, P0306 and P0305, which are Misfires on Cylinder 1, 6 and 5

My Mechanic cleared the code, told me to drive it and come back after the weekend. I drove it for about 70 miles, CEL didn't come back, took it back to the shop. The mechanic told me that that the P1325 came back (but no light). They kept the car for couple of days to run more diagnostics. They changed the oil, inspected the filter, and it looked fine. Switched Bank2 sensor with Bank 1, and still got the code on bank 2. Valve lift tested fine, Ohm tested actuators and that was fine. Eventually they told me they weren't sure what the problem was, and suggested I should take it to the dealership because they have the latest diagnostic tools.

The car has little over 54k mi and sounds, idles and drives very well and the mechanic reiterated that fact. They mentioned that they got a strange reading "Adaption Angle = -128 degrees” which didn't make sense to them. One of the mechanics was leaning towards an electrical problem, but they didn't have the proper tools to diagnose it.

I finally took it to the dealer. Towards the end of the day the service advisor calls and tells me that they ran their own diagnostics --but he was very short on details-- and they determined it is the Cam Adjuster. They gave me quote for $3700 to fix. Ouch!

At this point I am not really sure if they found the root of the problem. To me it sounded as if it were a process of elimination. Is there any other troubleshooting they can do? What do you think?

I appreciate your help and ideas.

Thanks
~ Sam

Macster

The misfires are for cylinders 4, 5, 6.

Anyhow if the CEL was off then my info is any error codes read are stale.

The DME can retain stale error codes but the test equipment or the operator needs to query for the number of DTCs then read the DTCs *if* the number of DTCs is not zero and if the MIL (malfunction indicator lamp) status is on meaning the CEL is on or should be on. (The bulb can be bad or disconnected.)

Now there can be pending DTCs, which are read via another service number.

And there can be permanent DTCs which are read via yet another service number. These DTCs can only be cleared by the DME after the associated error condition has been absent for so many warm up cycles.

That -128 deg reading might be explained if one had access to the data byte and the min/max and scaling/bit definition of the data byte returned by the DME.

None of the standard/public OBD2 Mode 1 PIDs from 0 to 255 return that value. It is probably something obtained from the DME by a Porsche proprietary query.

So where does this leave you?

If the shop or shops have eliminated the solenoid and it sounds like they have then that leaves the actuator.

Roughly for my Boxster a passenger side VarioCam solenoid/actuator R&R cost me $3K.

For $3700 I think you are entitled to go back to the dealer and have them go over in some detail how they arrived at their diagnosis and some assurance that that have id'd the root cause or they have eliminated all other possible/plausible causes.

If you get answers that satisfy you then have the work done. If not keep looking for a 2nd opinion.

There's not much else it can be...but let's cover some possibilities though these are long shots...

A wet DME.

A bad DME.

A wiring problem.

All of the above come under the general heading of "electrical" problem.

Anyone been at the engine recently?

Rodents gnawing in wiring. You need to carefully inspect the car for any signs of rodents. If you find some then the engine wiring harness/DME harness wiring needs careful inspection. This is difficult because much of this wiring it buried but the techs can use flashlights and swivel mirrors on sticks to peer around for rodent sign (droppings on the engine) and signs of gnawing on the harness.

Sincerely,

Macster.

digitalsam

Thank you Macster for the detailed reply. Sorry, that was a typo; you are correct, it was cylinder 4,5,6, (not 1, 5,6).

To answer your question, no engine work has been performed since I bought the car, 1.5 years ago. I know that early on, the previous owner had RMS and the clutch done, but not aware of anything else. I keep the car in my garage at all times, and I don't drive it that much. No sign of rodents in my garage, but I have heard that the little creature love Porsches.

Update:
I asked the dealership mechanic to do more electrical diagnostics, wiring and DME bypass. They did that and came back and told me that they ruled out electrical/wiring and DME issues.

I also talked to another independent shop just before talking to the dealership mechanic. They told me that Cam adjuster isn't a common problem. However they see more problems with lifters. When I talked to the dealership mechanic, he shot that idea down. (Sorry, I don't remember the details.)

When I asked the dealership mechanic about the cam variation angle --not sure if this is the right term, he said he was getting a cam off by 2 degrees. Is that bad? Can I drive the car before they perform the work?

ultramens

Hi, i also have the P1325 code. This is the only code I have. I got the code 4 weeks ago, it went away by itself after the 1st week. It came back and then went away again. This morning it came back on. I have no clue to what is wrong, but the car drives/idles fine. I cannot tell there is any difference. Anyone know why it goes away and comes back?

digitalsam

Question, did you get a CEL? And when you say the the code went away, did the CEL go away too? Or did you clear the code and it came back after some time?

My CEL came back on today after it was cleared about 90~100 mile ago. But the code keeps coming back after start or drive.

Macster

First as to whether you can drive the car in this "condition" I can't answer with any authority. Whenever there's something possibly wrong deep inside the engine even if the engine isn't exhibiting abnormal behavior I'm reluctant to risk more serious engine damage and err on the side of caution.

Most of the time.

When my Boxster developed a problem in its passenger side VarioCam hardware I decided to drive the car home. The engine was behaviing rather well of course or I would not have done this. I was willing to bet the engine in a 220K mile Boxster against the cost (approx. $200) of a 30 mile tow. I won the bet. The engine held together just fine and after a new solenoid/actuator was installed by the dealer's tech the engine now has covered maybe 35K more miles with nary a whimper.

As for the cam angle deviation the person to ask if that is bad, or what it means, is the tech who told you that.

My documentation on this P1325 code is very very thin. My references do not cover this error code at all, but do cover error codes before and after it.

Now for the tech it is different: Generally there are a series of tests that the tech is to follow which helps him pinpoint the cause of the problem.

He has eliminated wiring and DME and other electrical causes which leaves...

If can recap -- and correct me if I made any mistakes I'm a bit pressed for time right now -- you have tried switching solenoids around and the problem stays on the original bank. This also eliminates a broken solenoid bracket which has been the source of some problems in this area.

Anyhow, that the error code stayed with the original bank suggests the problem is a failure deeper than the solenoid which AFAIK leaves just the actuator.

If you want to pursue this on your own my advice would be to join Renntech.org and search P1325. I did this just before I posted and there are some posts on this error code but I do not have time to go through them to try to condense the info into a concise/precise DIY for you to use to diagnose this problem, not that I'm capable of that even if I had the time.

The dealer tech with the diagnostics computer has the ability to give the VarioCam system a pretty thorough check out but it can cost some time, my WAG is an hour maybe more. Given with my Boxster I was facing an approx. $3K repair bill (or a sick and possible dead engine and all that brings with it) I didn't mind giving the tech the ok to do the diagnostics. He did and confirmed the diagnosis. IIRC the dealership didn't charge me for this time when I went ahead and had the dealership service department replace the bad hardware. Even if I was charged for the diagnostics time another $150 on top of a $3K repair bill with the resulting repair addressing the root cause of the problem was to me of little consequence.

Sincerely,

Macster.

ultramens

Yes I do have a CEL. When I say that it went away, I meant that the CEL went away. I did not manually clear it. I just brought a house and to think that this repair will cost 3K has me scared. I dont want to bring it in to Porsche of Orlando cause they are crooks.

ultramens

Oh forgot to mention that I have a 1999 C4 with 133K miles.

Macster

The repair cost to replace a VarioCam solenoid/actuator in a 996 engine is I believe less than the cost to do a similar repair in a Boxster 986 engine.

My info is the 996 solenoid R&R is as "easy" as doing plugs.

The actuator is a bit more work but can be done with the engine in the car.

One thing though that adds cost to both jobs for both engines is the frickin' actuator is one expensive assembly of alum./steel/plastic.

I think the actuator cost is near $700. My dealer gives a discount on parts to PCA club members and I think this is common to all dealers but get a quote.

If you do not want to do business with a dealer near you that is your decision.

I would be reluctant to entrust this work to an indy though so if you can find an alternate dealer who you trust to make a proper diagnosis and then do the work that would be my advice.

Sincerely,

Macster.

digitalsam

I have faced reality and accepted the fact that this will be ~ 3k+ Job, because at this point all the diagnostics have been exhausted. The job will be labor intensive because it involves taking things apart. The question at this point is the following; is the problem with the Cam Adjuster, which is unusual for this year/model (based on my research). Or is it the valve lifter.

I will give an update tomorrow.

digitalsam

Well, I took the car to the independent shop that I talked to while I was waiting for dealership to get back to me --this was the 3rd place. As I mentioned in the previous post, the gentleman that I talked to on the phone suspected it was a valve lifter. When I got there, I talked to the guy and he asked if we can go for a drive. They plugged in the tester, and ran some diagnostics. Then the head mechanic came by and looked at the diagnostics and also said he suspected it was a valve lifter issue. We spent a bit of time talking -- and I really appreciated that-- and he mentioned that he sees a lot of valve lifter problems with 996's and some 997's, especially when they get to they get over the 50k miles. But he explained that this problems is tricky, and is very hard to pinpoint, but it's one of these things where experience comes into play. As for the Cam Adjuster, he said it is very uncommon. They have to open things up, and inspect. So I left the car there and asked them to do what is necessary.

I just had a good feeling for the place and liked the fact that they explain things and answer questions. Driving a Porsche is a true pleasure, but things do go wrong sometimes, and when do they come with a price.

I will give an update on how things turn out.

ultramens

Hi, any updates? Did you get it fixed and what was the cost? Thanks.

digitalsam

Sorry for not posting any updates. I just didn’t have much to say as the saga still continues ... The car is still in the shop. As I mentioned before I decided to have an independent shop do the work. After a week and a half, they got back to me and told me the adjuster is sticking, so they had to change it. The lifters had grooves (indicating that they are going bad) and that may have caused the misfire, and they changed them. Then last week the mechanic called and told me that after putting everything back together, he drove the car, and the code is back. Nightmare! I’ve read some threads here with the same exact story.

I got a call yesterday with an update; after more some diagnostics, they found out that the problem is electrical, specifically with the wire that goes to the solenoid. The mechanic bypassed the bad wire, but found out that the solenoid is still malfunctioning. He attributed that to the DME. Somehow, the bad wire damaged the DME. So now I need a new DME.

I am beyond aggravated at point. All the research that I did earlier led me to believe it’s the DME. When Macster mentioned on this thread that it could be DME, I was even more convinced. I told every mechanic what Macster said, bad wiring or DME. Every single one of them, including the dealership shot down the idea of bad DME. After spending all this money on things I probably didn’t need, we come back full circle, back to the DME.

I am still not sure what to do. I read that there are places that fix DMEs. Any recommendations? DMEs are a pain to change. Not only expensive, but everything needs to be reprogrammed.

Macster

IIRC you had a dealer tech rule out DME/electrical problems. The last I remember was the solenoid/actuator was suspect.

I didn't say it was the DME or anything electrical. I mentioned the DME or an electrical problem because they are possibilities.

It is a shop's job to either confirm or eliminate these possibilities.

It should do this without having to hear it from me.

The indy shop replaced the solenoid and the symptom remained. My info is based on my experience with my car is the techs tell me that they replace the solenoid/actuator in pairs. In the case of the Boxster the solenoid is a bit easier (but not that much easier, read less expensive) to get to than the actuator but there is no way to know the actuator is bad until after the solenoid is replaced.

But this actuator can't be tested with the new solenoid until the engine is buttoned up and by this time one is facing a double repair bill to have the tech go back in and replace the actuator. The labor to get to the actuator is more than the solenoid and the actuator part cost is higher as well.

Now the 996 engine is a bit different than the Boxster engine in this area is my 2nd hand info. In the 996 engine the solenoid can be replaced rather easily.

So I guess the steps would be identify the solenoid as being bad -- eliminating of course DME/wiring, replace the solenoid, then run the engine.

If the error codes come back then the actuator is at fault and it needs to be replaced.

Ok the shop you elected to repair the car after replacing the solenoid and then the actuator -- about the only thing left given the DME/wiring was cleared -- also found the lifters were I guess scored and replaced those as well. Hey, it happens.

Now the CEL returns the symptoms remain and the indy shop is now blaming DME having been damaged by a wiring fault. I could imagine --- though in saying this it just sounds like I'm piling on when I do not mean to and I sympathize with your situation -- the indy shop damaged the wiring and possibly inflicted the damage to the DME.

Well, assuming this indy shop didn't do the above and is right in its diagnosis -- and it does not have a good track record in this regard if I comprehend what you wrote correctly -- you can buy a new DME and have this shop install it. I do not know what the DME costs for your car.

Or you can have the one in your car repaired. There are some places that specialize in this. I do not recall any off the top of my head, but I have come across ads for DME repair in Panorama and Excellence.

But -- and this is important -- if the indy shop is right then it must locate the wiring problem that caused the original DME grief.

The indy shop can't claim the wiring caused the DME fault without finding and showing you the wiring fault and fixing it so it is no longer a risk to the DME.

If this is not done then as soon as the repaired/new DME is installed the same wiring problem could rear its ugly head and hose the DME. Again.

digitalsam

Thanks Macster. And just to reiterate, I understood that you were saying DME/wiring was a possibility. That was a good guess/advise. BTW, all the shops that I dealt with didn't even mention the possibility of electrical issues until I brought it up. They all told me that wiring/DME issues was highly unlikely.
To address couple of your points:

- The indy shop that did the work replaced the lifters and the Adjuster on the end of the camshaft, which I think is also referred to as an actuator. It's Part number 996 105 052 01. As far as I know they didn't change the solenoids.
- Regarding the damage to the DME, are you suspecting that THEY damaged the DME? that would be terrible. This is a reputable place and very well respected by many Porsche owners. The guy told me that the problem manifests itself when the system is under load. I guess this means that it was easy to miss and wouldn't have been identified with the diagnostic tools. It sounded to me as if it was the problem all along, but nobody, including himself was able to identify it earlier.

- Regarding the bad wire; you are correct, he mentioned that he had to bypass the bad wire (or reroute it), and he said if didn't do that, it would damage the next DME. He also gave me the option for changing the other wires and wire harness. But he didn't think it was absolutely necessary and would be more $$$.