Market price for '02 C2 needing engine rebuild
09-22-2012, 10:27 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Market price for '02 C2 needing engine rebuild
I'm looking for opinions about what kind of asking price range I should be considering if I choose to sell instead of go through the engine remanufacture or rebuild process. I started down that path but am now toying with the idea of moving on and buying an '07 or '08 C2S. My '02 C2 would be ideal for someone interested in a project that would yield an aggressive street / track car at what could end up being a fairly modest price. I realize though that my potential market size is probably pretty small at any given time which is why I'm hoping to get some feedback here regarding a fair price range.
The car is sitting at GT3 ride height via H&R coilovers, and I had RSS adjustable rear links installed to tighten the back up a little more and add camber adjustment range. It is a remarkably well balanced car, set up by the pros at Cantrell Motorsports. New Michelin PS2's were installed a few months ago. They have one DE day on them (I drive in the slow group). Front tires have about 2K miles. Rears about 1K. New brake pads and sensors were done a few months ago as well.
You'll see "pumpkins" in the attached photos and the ones accessed via the link below but I've since changed the side marker lights out for clear ones. I also peeled off a yellowing 3M clear bra, had the turbo front end resprayed (also within the last few months) and then 3 weeks ago spent $1,300 having the entire front clip, meaning full hood and fenders, wrapped with Xpel Ultra film, the best available today. The paint is perfect over 95%+ of the car.
Regarding the engine, it's still in the car but needs to be remanufactured or replaced. It never leaked anything, there are no holes, no intermix, not an IMS failure, etc. The car is sitting at a Seattle area indy but they haven't done anything yet other than drain oil and cut open the filter to determine there is nothing metallic floating around, and ran a borescope down the #1 cylinder to determine the source of the problem.
Here is a complete description followed by a link to photos.
2002 Porsche 996 Carrera
Mk2 car with OEM GT3 and GT2 components
78K miles
VIN -- WP0AA29932S620380
Engine and Transmission:
Remanufactured Engine with deep factory sump upgrade (replaced at 70K miles) (And now blown but would be a viable core)
Porsche OEM upgraded sport clutch (replaced at 70K miles)
Custom exhaust with Magnaflow mufflers (OEM quiet around town - sounds great when the rev's climb)
6 speed transmission
Exterior:
Seal Grey paint (all original)
Factory Sunroof option
GT3 rear spoiler/decklid (OEM with air intake on correct side)
GT3 rockers
Turbo front nose/bumper
GT2 lower spoiler
Xenon Litronic lights with integrated front fog lights
Rear fog light
Headlight washers
Power mirrors (heated)
Suspension/Brakes/Wheels:
H&R Coilovers (RSS spec)
Porsche Cup Car Swaybars and adjustable end links
Factory Big Brakes with track pads
Calipers upgraded to Porsche Speed Yellow
OEM GT3 wheels -- 18"x8.5", 18"x11"
Michelin Pilot Sport Tires -- 235/40-18, 295/30-18
Porsche Stability Management (PSM)
Interior:
Supple black leather interior, all original
Sport leather seats -- all power operated
Climate Control system
Carpeted Porsche logo floor mats
Power windows
Onboard computer (temp, mileage, speed, time, etc.)
Porsche factory AM/FM/CD Stereo System
Front trunk area clean and complete with spare and tool kit
Other:
New sealed battery (September 2011)
Fresh oil change (October 2011)
Clean Carfax/Autocheck
Car is titled as 2002 vehicle with a clean and clear title.
Many high resolution pictures can be seen here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarmstr...7627854510185/
(Note: don't call the contact listed on the flickr link. He's the guy that sold it to me. Only PM me or reply to this thread.)
The car is sitting at GT3 ride height via H&R coilovers, and I had RSS adjustable rear links installed to tighten the back up a little more and add camber adjustment range. It is a remarkably well balanced car, set up by the pros at Cantrell Motorsports. New Michelin PS2's were installed a few months ago. They have one DE day on them (I drive in the slow group). Front tires have about 2K miles. Rears about 1K. New brake pads and sensors were done a few months ago as well.
You'll see "pumpkins" in the attached photos and the ones accessed via the link below but I've since changed the side marker lights out for clear ones. I also peeled off a yellowing 3M clear bra, had the turbo front end resprayed (also within the last few months) and then 3 weeks ago spent $1,300 having the entire front clip, meaning full hood and fenders, wrapped with Xpel Ultra film, the best available today. The paint is perfect over 95%+ of the car.
Regarding the engine, it's still in the car but needs to be remanufactured or replaced. It never leaked anything, there are no holes, no intermix, not an IMS failure, etc. The car is sitting at a Seattle area indy but they haven't done anything yet other than drain oil and cut open the filter to determine there is nothing metallic floating around, and ran a borescope down the #1 cylinder to determine the source of the problem.
Here is a complete description followed by a link to photos.
2002 Porsche 996 Carrera
Mk2 car with OEM GT3 and GT2 components
78K miles
VIN -- WP0AA29932S620380
Engine and Transmission:
Remanufactured Engine with deep factory sump upgrade (replaced at 70K miles) (And now blown but would be a viable core)
Porsche OEM upgraded sport clutch (replaced at 70K miles)
Custom exhaust with Magnaflow mufflers (OEM quiet around town - sounds great when the rev's climb)
6 speed transmission
Exterior:
Seal Grey paint (all original)
Factory Sunroof option
GT3 rear spoiler/decklid (OEM with air intake on correct side)
GT3 rockers
Turbo front nose/bumper
GT2 lower spoiler
Xenon Litronic lights with integrated front fog lights
Rear fog light
Headlight washers
Power mirrors (heated)
Suspension/Brakes/Wheels:
H&R Coilovers (RSS spec)
Porsche Cup Car Swaybars and adjustable end links
Factory Big Brakes with track pads
Calipers upgraded to Porsche Speed Yellow
OEM GT3 wheels -- 18"x8.5", 18"x11"
Michelin Pilot Sport Tires -- 235/40-18, 295/30-18
Porsche Stability Management (PSM)
Interior:
Supple black leather interior, all original
Sport leather seats -- all power operated
Climate Control system
Carpeted Porsche logo floor mats
Power windows
Onboard computer (temp, mileage, speed, time, etc.)
Porsche factory AM/FM/CD Stereo System
Front trunk area clean and complete with spare and tool kit
Other:
New sealed battery (September 2011)
Fresh oil change (October 2011)
Clean Carfax/Autocheck
Car is titled as 2002 vehicle with a clean and clear title.
Many high resolution pictures can be seen here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarmstr...7627854510185/
(Note: don't call the contact listed on the flickr link. He's the guy that sold it to me. Only PM me or reply to this thread.)
09-23-2012, 12:26 AM
#2
Drifting
I bought a 99 996 two years ago with a cracked cylinder liner with 62K miles for $6250.
I know of a 2001 Tip with 90K miles asking $10k that has an IMS issue -- and its been available
for almost 2 months, which I take to mean the car is overpriced.
I have bought multiple boxsters for sub $5k. The latest was an 01 92k miles Tip for $2500.
Granted the Boxsters are not 996s -- but the spread isn't that huge.
You have a lot of go fast parts -- unfortunately they often don't convey $$ to new owners.
You have to think to yourself -- how much could I sell it if the engine was fine.
How much would it cost to get the engine replaced or fixed -- then place
a value on the fact that the engine had to be fixed and there are potential unknowns
to that cost -- as well as down time on the car.
Mike
I know of a 2001 Tip with 90K miles asking $10k that has an IMS issue -- and its been available
for almost 2 months, which I take to mean the car is overpriced.
I have bought multiple boxsters for sub $5k. The latest was an 01 92k miles Tip for $2500.
Granted the Boxsters are not 996s -- but the spread isn't that huge.
You have a lot of go fast parts -- unfortunately they often don't convey $$ to new owners.
You have to think to yourself -- how much could I sell it if the engine was fine.
How much would it cost to get the engine replaced or fixed -- then place
a value on the fact that the engine had to be fixed and there are potential unknowns
to that cost -- as well as down time on the car.
Mike
09-23-2012, 12:38 AM
#3
Former Vendor
Thats a very clean 996.. BUT its too bad that it's heart has been broken. When this happens the value plummets and the number of buyers willing to deal with the liability of purchasing the car also plummets. I have seen some cars broken on the market for months or even a couple of years because the seller won't accept a reasonable offer for the car.
That said, we buy broken cars routinely and pay certified funds the next day via Fed Ex when we agree on a fair price. See this link for details:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/comp...hase-worksheet
We generally have a wait list of folks looking for blown up cars to take advantage of the perfect opportunity to apply one of our engines and come out a little cheaper on a complete vehicle. We buy them, build the engines to order and then sell the entire car. It works good for the seller, the buyer and for us.
That said, one of our customers has one of our stage 1 3.6>>3.8 big bore engines for sale that has never been installed into a car. The engine was built for an 02/996 and would slide right in. I honestly can't believe that he hasn't sold it yet with our backlog at 7 months and our prices starting at 20K for this package while he will take 17K for the engine. We never keep any engines in stock, and it might be a quick deal to get you going with a real engine for the vehicle if you decide to keep it and treat it to the best that can be bought. LN Nickies, our full package was applied.. He gave up on the rest of the car, go figure.
What was the primary mode of engine failure?
Oh yeah, custom vehicles and go fast parts make the car HARDER to sell time and time again. we generally have to put cars back to stock to sell them as most of our buyers are older, still have money and don't want a hotrod.
That said, we buy broken cars routinely and pay certified funds the next day via Fed Ex when we agree on a fair price. See this link for details:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/comp...hase-worksheet
We generally have a wait list of folks looking for blown up cars to take advantage of the perfect opportunity to apply one of our engines and come out a little cheaper on a complete vehicle. We buy them, build the engines to order and then sell the entire car. It works good for the seller, the buyer and for us.
That said, one of our customers has one of our stage 1 3.6>>3.8 big bore engines for sale that has never been installed into a car. The engine was built for an 02/996 and would slide right in. I honestly can't believe that he hasn't sold it yet with our backlog at 7 months and our prices starting at 20K for this package while he will take 17K for the engine. We never keep any engines in stock, and it might be a quick deal to get you going with a real engine for the vehicle if you decide to keep it and treat it to the best that can be bought. LN Nickies, our full package was applied.. He gave up on the rest of the car, go figure.
What was the primary mode of engine failure?
Oh yeah, custom vehicles and go fast parts make the car HARDER to sell time and time again. we generally have to put cars back to stock to sell them as most of our buyers are older, still have money and don't want a hotrod.
09-23-2012, 01:08 AM
#4
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2011
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You've got some very nice parts on there....... Overall that's a VERY clean car, you did a great job with the mods! With that being said, I've seen nicely modded & 100% fully operational MKII 996's selling for $25-$30k. Your mileage is a bit on the high end so even if your car was running you'd probably only fetch $25k at best; of course that amount could be higher if you find a buyer who really likes your mods (someone like me). So factoring in $10-$15k for a replacement engine you're probably looking at $10-$15k for your car. Most likely somewhere closer to $10k....... You will definitley get more money by parting out most of the car and then selling whatever is left over (the chassis with body panels. For instance, you can probably get at least $3-$4k for your suspension parts, wheels & tires ($2k for wheels & tires, $750 for coilovers, $$$ for rest of the parts). Litronics will sell for $1000. Is that an oem GT3 wing? If so you're looking at $2k. Front fenders bumpers and hood - if you find someone who wants to do a front end conversion and has the same color car you can unload that stuff for close to $2k. Tail lights will sell for $400. Etc. Etc....... We've barely made a dent in the complete list of parts you'd have to sell and we're already close to $10k. You could sell every last bit until you're sick of pulling the parts off. List them on Rennlist, Ebay, and 6 Speed and they will sell for sure, and VERY QUICKLY! If you have garage space and some spare time, and don't mind dealing with buyers for each individual part then I'd part the car out, you'll get waaaaaaay more money than if you make a straight sale for the complete car. If you had an unmodded car then the numbers wouldn't make sense btw.
09-23-2012, 03:11 AM
#5
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thats a very clean 996.. BUT its too bad that it's heart has been broken. When this happens the value plummets and the number of buyers willing to deal with the liability of purchasing the car also plummets. I have seen some cars broken on the market for months or even a couple of years because the seller won't accept a reasonable offer for the car.
That said, we buy broken cars routinely and pay certified funds the next day via Fed Ex when we agree on a fair price. See this link for details:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/comp...hase-worksheet
We generally have a wait list of folks looking for blown up cars to take advantage of the perfect opportunity to apply one of our engines and come out a little cheaper on a complete vehicle. We buy them, build the engines to order and then sell the entire car. It works good for the seller, the buyer and for us.
That said, one of our customers has one of our stage 1 3.6>>3.8 big bore engines for sale that has never been installed into a car. The engine was built for an 02/996 and would slide right in. I honestly can't believe that he hasn't sold it yet with our backlog at 7 months and our prices starting at 20K for this package while he will take 17K for the engine. We never keep any engines in stock, and it might be a quick deal to get you going with a real engine for the vehicle if you decide to keep it and treat it to the best that can be bought. LN Nickies, our full package was applied.. He gave up on the rest of the car, go figure.
What was the primary mode of engine failure?
Oh yeah, custom vehicles and go fast parts make the car HARDER to sell time and time again. we generally have to put cars back to stock to sell them as most of our buyers are older, still have money and don't want a hotrod.
That said, we buy broken cars routinely and pay certified funds the next day via Fed Ex when we agree on a fair price. See this link for details:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/comp...hase-worksheet
We generally have a wait list of folks looking for blown up cars to take advantage of the perfect opportunity to apply one of our engines and come out a little cheaper on a complete vehicle. We buy them, build the engines to order and then sell the entire car. It works good for the seller, the buyer and for us.
That said, one of our customers has one of our stage 1 3.6>>3.8 big bore engines for sale that has never been installed into a car. The engine was built for an 02/996 and would slide right in. I honestly can't believe that he hasn't sold it yet with our backlog at 7 months and our prices starting at 20K for this package while he will take 17K for the engine. We never keep any engines in stock, and it might be a quick deal to get you going with a real engine for the vehicle if you decide to keep it and treat it to the best that can be bought. LN Nickies, our full package was applied.. He gave up on the rest of the car, go figure.
What was the primary mode of engine failure?
Oh yeah, custom vehicles and go fast parts make the car HARDER to sell time and time again. we generally have to put cars back to stock to sell them as most of our buyers are older, still have money and don't want a hotrod.
Thanks for the input. I have a lot of respect for the approach taken by you and your company. Looks like a high integrity operation doing industry leading work.
If I hang on to the car, I want to improve it in the process of getting it back on the road so that Stage 1 engine is compelling. I realize I would be dealing with your customer, and not your company, so do you have any thoughts or advice about getting some value out of my core?
I'm still not exactly sure what happened to my motor. It was remanufactured by a SoCal builder and installed by the PO, approximately 8K miles ago. The day it failed it was running perfectly as always. I had a nearly empty fuel tank and filled it up with 92 octane from a 76 station a little off the beaten track. 10 miles later the engine started to stumble while pulling slowly away from a stop light. Misfiring increased, CEL came on, and I quickly found a parking lot and shut it down.
The borescope photo I saw shows a piece of metal, the same shape but slightly larger than a spark plug electrode, embedded in the #1 cylinder head next to a valve. The assumption is that it's a broken off chunk of piston or ring that may have failed from detonation. If that's the case I'm guessing it was a weak component to begin with and probably waiting for the right set of conditions to find the failure point. I asked my indy to check out the DME data. There were several Type 1's recorded, and a few Type 2's, but nothing Type 3 or greater. The Type 2's were pretty far back in the recorded hours on this engine so this does not appear to be a self inflicted wound.
09-23-2012, 01:35 PM
#6
I mean the car would be worth $25k - 30k max
Engine cost $20k
You are looking at 5k difference.
I think your best bet is to sell all the mods for $5-8k
Then dump the car for $8k
I think it is worth $15k for the right buyer. Who can either part it out as well, or buy a $20k motor and restarts its life with a superb 3.8 conversion.
That would be a very nice 996 3.8 with new engine.
Question for Jack Raby: "how much would you pay for my blown engine"
Because if you can make some money on the core and reduce the engine cost upgrade the whole thing look much better.
Engine cost $20k
You are looking at 5k difference.
I think your best bet is to sell all the mods for $5-8k
Then dump the car for $8k
I think it is worth $15k for the right buyer. Who can either part it out as well, or buy a $20k motor and restarts its life with a superb 3.8 conversion.
That would be a very nice 996 3.8 with new engine.
Question for Jack Raby: "how much would you pay for my blown engine"
Because if you can make some money on the core and reduce the engine cost upgrade the whole thing look much better.
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09-23-2012, 02:04 PM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input Phil. You'll be the first PM if I part it out although I don't think I have the patience to sell it one piece at a time. If I can get some reasonable value out of my core I think I'll go with Raby's 3.6 >> 3.8 Stage 1 motor.
09-23-2012, 02:05 PM
#9
Race Director
No idea of the car's value as it sits.
Give Oklahoma Foreign a call and see what it will offer you for the car. I offered my brand new (but wrecked) (totaled!) 08 Cayman S to it and was offered a reasonable $17.3K. (I managed to sell the car at a salvage car auction for over $20K, but I think I got darn lucky, not that OF's offer was low.)
There are similar companies on the east coast and west coast.
Parts Heaven here in Hayward might be interested in the car.
The problem with selling a car with a non-functioning engine (well dead engine) in your car's case is the buyer has no way of really determining the rest of the car's condition. Thus the buyer will offer something to give him some cushion in case the radiators are shot, the clutch/tranny toast, the A/C needs work, etc.
I'm not a big fan (to say the least) of parting a car out. Who wants his house/garage/driveway looking like an auto parts salvage yard? Who wants to spend his spare time dealing with people looking for some small part and wanting to pay $0 for it? And all for the chance to have a few thousand dollars trickling in over the next decade or two?
Unless you have an operation that requires a kennel of junk yard dogs to guard at night my advice is to seek a sale of the car and be shut of it, unless of course you decide to replace the engine and put the car back on the road.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Give Oklahoma Foreign a call and see what it will offer you for the car. I offered my brand new (but wrecked) (totaled!) 08 Cayman S to it and was offered a reasonable $17.3K. (I managed to sell the car at a salvage car auction for over $20K, but I think I got darn lucky, not that OF's offer was low.)
There are similar companies on the east coast and west coast.
Parts Heaven here in Hayward might be interested in the car.
The problem with selling a car with a non-functioning engine (well dead engine) in your car's case is the buyer has no way of really determining the rest of the car's condition. Thus the buyer will offer something to give him some cushion in case the radiators are shot, the clutch/tranny toast, the A/C needs work, etc.
I'm not a big fan (to say the least) of parting a car out. Who wants his house/garage/driveway looking like an auto parts salvage yard? Who wants to spend his spare time dealing with people looking for some small part and wanting to pay $0 for it? And all for the chance to have a few thousand dollars trickling in over the next decade or two?
Unless you have an operation that requires a kennel of junk yard dogs to guard at night my advice is to seek a sale of the car and be shut of it, unless of course you decide to replace the engine and put the car back on the road.
Sincerely,
Macster.
09-23-2012, 02:21 PM
#11
Track Day
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Type 1 --> Ignition Cycles at redline.
Type 2 --> Ignition Cycles above redline.
09-23-2012, 02:58 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
I think you're right. In looking into this further it appears that it wasn't until the 997 that the DME was programmed to record 6 stages of over rev. In that case Type 1 & 2 are considered to be benign. Progressive likelihood of trashing a motor occurs in Type 3 thru 6, all of which correspond to specific RPM ranges.
09-23-2012, 06:47 PM
#13
TideRace - There is someone on 6speedOnline looking for a car with a blown engine -
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ed-engine.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ed-engine.html
