Don't get the 993 mystique
03-12-2012, 05:04 AM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Couldn't say it any better. The 993 was the end of an era, the 996 the beginning of a new one. You can't fully compare these 2 models. The 993 is a P in it's purest form, while the 996 is more modern. The modernization and technology changed everything.
I would love to own a 993 one day. It is, and always will be, one of the best looking Porsche's in my opinion. offcourse every 911 is beyond gorgeous but this is just.... perfection. :
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...S/DSC09232.jpg
I would love to own a 993 one day. It is, and always will be, one of the best looking Porsche's in my opinion. offcourse every 911 is beyond gorgeous but this is just.... perfection. :
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...S/DSC09232.jpg
03-12-2012, 06:25 AM
#32
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I'm actually tired of all the comments this plain old Carrera elicits every where I go, especially around here where half the cars on the road are more expensive than mine!
03-12-2012, 10:18 AM
#33
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03-12-2012, 03:31 PM
#34
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03-12-2012, 03:58 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Interesting timing for this thread.
I've always been a 993 fan. An Arena Red TT still tops my list of cars I'd like to add to my garage. I even considered whether I wanted to go the 993 route when I picked up my C4S last summer.
Although I wasn't initially a fan of the 911's "fried egg" headlamp cluster when the the 996 Mk1 came to market I always found the 996 to be a beautiful car and a true "911" despite its loss of an air cooled engine. What bothered me wasn't the 911's alleged loss of its round headlamps or air cooled engine; I just disliked that the 911's face was nearly indistinguishable from the Boxster's. The headlight design never offended me per se. I thought it was a poor decision by Porsche corporate to give the two cars the same front end.
As for the mystique of the 993, I think it's pretty straight forward: it is the last of the air cooled Porsches and, therefore, a particular era. The 996 was also a significant technological leap (and I mean that in a good way) over the 993 which means, for purists who loathe this sort of thing, the 993 was their car of choice.
The reason I find it interesting timing is because I encountered my first bit of 993 "snobery" over the weekend when a 993 owner asked me why I bought a 996 instead of 993, right before throwing a few generic criticisms of the 996 over the fence.
If I'd been standing within spitting distance of my car I would have pointed to it and said, "Look at it. The thing speaks for itself. Now, let's go for a drive. I'll lead, you follow."
-Eric
I've always been a 993 fan. An Arena Red TT still tops my list of cars I'd like to add to my garage. I even considered whether I wanted to go the 993 route when I picked up my C4S last summer.
Although I wasn't initially a fan of the 911's "fried egg" headlamp cluster when the the 996 Mk1 came to market I always found the 996 to be a beautiful car and a true "911" despite its loss of an air cooled engine. What bothered me wasn't the 911's alleged loss of its round headlamps or air cooled engine; I just disliked that the 911's face was nearly indistinguishable from the Boxster's. The headlight design never offended me per se. I thought it was a poor decision by Porsche corporate to give the two cars the same front end.
As for the mystique of the 993, I think it's pretty straight forward: it is the last of the air cooled Porsches and, therefore, a particular era. The 996 was also a significant technological leap (and I mean that in a good way) over the 993 which means, for purists who loathe this sort of thing, the 993 was their car of choice.
The reason I find it interesting timing is because I encountered my first bit of 993 "snobery" over the weekend when a 993 owner asked me why I bought a 996 instead of 993, right before throwing a few generic criticisms of the 996 over the fence.
If I'd been standing within spitting distance of my car I would have pointed to it and said, "Look at it. The thing speaks for itself. Now, let's go for a drive. I'll lead, you follow."
-Eric
03-12-2012, 04:23 PM
#36
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I don't understand this distaste for the front end of the 996, being identical to the Boxster
I like the front end of the Boxster and 996. They are both great cars, and no question they are related. The Boxster is less expensive, but still maintains Porsche quality, style and performance. I'm not insulted if someone mistakes my 996 for a Boxster
A Porsche is a Porsche. When I had my first Porsche, a 914, everybody told me it was a VW. Yes, it was built in the VW facilities, and had parts with the VW logo, but it would kick any VW ***. My 928s were demonized by Porsche purists (snobs), yet, to me it was the epitomy of Porsche innovatin and luxury As far as I'm concerned, a Porsche is a Porsche. OK, maybe not the 924
I like the front end of the Boxster and 996. They are both great cars, and no question they are related. The Boxster is less expensive, but still maintains Porsche quality, style and performance. I'm not insulted if someone mistakes my 996 for a Boxster A Porsche is a Porsche. When I had my first Porsche, a 914, everybody told me it was a VW. Yes, it was built in the VW facilities, and had parts with the VW logo, but it would kick any VW ***. My 928s were demonized by Porsche purists (snobs), yet, to me it was the epitomy of Porsche innovatin and luxury As far as I'm concerned, a Porsche is a Porsche. OK, maybe not the 924
03-12-2012, 04:58 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
I don't understand this distaste for the front end of the 996, being identical to the Boxster I like the front end of the Boxster and 996. They are both great cars, and no question they are related. The Boxster is less expensive, but still maintains Porsche quality, style and performance. I'm not insulted if someone mistakes my 996 for a Boxster A Porsche is a Porsche. When I had my first Porsche, a 914, everybody told me it was a VW. Yes, it was built in the VW facilities, and had parts with the VW logo, but it would kick any VW ***. My 928s were demonized by Porsche purists (snobs), yet, to me it was the epitomy of Porsche innovatin and luxury As far as I'm concerned, a Porsche is a Porsche. OK, maybe not the 924
I like the front end of the Boxster and 996. They are both great cars, and no question they are related. The Boxster is less expensive, but still maintains Porsche quality, style and performance. I'm not insulted if someone mistakes my 996 for a Boxster A Porsche is a Porsche. When I had my first Porsche, a 914, everybody told me it was a VW. Yes, it was built in the VW facilities, and had parts with the VW logo, but it would kick any VW ***. My 928s were demonized by Porsche purists (snobs), yet, to me it was the epitomy of Porsche innovatin and luxury As far as I'm concerned, a Porsche is a Porsche. OK, maybe not the 924There have always been contingents who have criticized Porsche's ties to VW. "The 356, 914, 924...even the 911...all just tarted up VWs." As for even your gentle ribbing about the 924, there wouldn't have been a 944 it weren't for the 924 and I hope you're not suggesting the 944 isn't a real Porsche.
Oh, and I've always like the 928, too. It was never a proper 911 replacement but that's a different issue and it doesn't make it any less of a Porsche.My issue with the 996/986 sharing the exact same front end wasn't whether either car was or wan't a Porsche.
My issue was with Porsche's philosophy that every Porsche need to look like a 911. The 911 is Porsche's icon. In my humble opinion, no other Porsche should look exactly like it. Share design features? Fine. Closely resemble it even? Fine. Be completely indistinguishable from it except when looking at it from the rear? Ummm...no. I don't understand why you would you take another model (especially one costing 50% or more less) and make it look exactly like the 911?
FWIW, I'm also not insulted if someone asks if my car is a Boxster. I also wasn't insulted when people called my TT a tarted up New Beetle (and those comments were closer to correct). It's not about how someone perceives me or my car individually; it's about a design/marketing strategy with which I completely disagree.
The Mk1 Cayenne looked like an amorphous 911 on steroids (the current design is much improved). The Panamera looks like it's a 911 that's been put through the rack and has been universally criticized for its rear proportions. Why? Because Porsche unnecessarily dictated that the rear of the car resemble a stretched 911. And, that's exactly what they got...a stretch 911.
If you look at Ferrari's current line-up, their cars all have different front ends yet each is instantly identifiable as a Ferrari. Aside from the air cooled 911 purists who seem to forget that Porsche sold cars BEFORE the 911 (and after), is there any question today that a 914, 944, or 928 was a Porsche?
-Eric
03-13-2012, 07:19 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
In other words, I don’t think there is a measurable where the 993 beats the 996.
That said, there is a visceral connection to the 993 that is lacking in the 996. The smells, the sounds, the general quirkiness of these hand built cars is, IMHO, either immediately appreciated or totally missed.
As for visual appeal, that is totally a personal thing. And personally, I think the 996 is borderline fugly.
When I satisfy the track bug, I will go back to a 993 immediately. But right now I love my 996.
That said, there is a visceral connection to the 993 that is lacking in the 996. The smells, the sounds, the general quirkiness of these hand built cars is, IMHO, either immediately appreciated or totally missed.
As for visual appeal, that is totally a personal thing. And personally, I think the 996 is borderline fugly.
When I satisfy the track bug, I will go back to a 993 immediately. But right now I love my 996.
03-13-2012, 10:28 AM
#41
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Hal .... Here is a 993 Myth ! "hand built cars"
"That said, there is a visceral connection to the 993 that is lacking in the 996. The smells, the sounds, the general quirkiness of these hand built cars is, IMHO, either immediately appreciated or totally missed."
The 993 is no more Hand Built than a 996.
Many writers of Porsche history confirm that Porsche production changed with the 993 to a highly automated system learned from studies of Toyota manufacturing and automation of "just-in-time" parts production lines.
It is noted in one new book with quotes from Porsche management that the $5000 reduction in price for the 993 from the 964 was due to manufacturing efficiency = "Automation". Another respected author notes the 993 was still in production on the Same assembly line as the early 996. If you want a "hand built" 911 you need to go back to the pre 964 Carrera. I toured the Factory during the production of the 997 and the introduction of Cayman. Even then the "official line" from the tour guide was..." Porsche are hand built!" There are plenty of "hands" involved even today... and Automation mixed in.
There is no doubt that the 996 design did bring cost controls and efficiency further. One comment I found interesting was about our "famous" headlights. They were designed to be installed in one minute... think of it ... compared to separate assembly of three lamp units on the older cars.
911's of any series or year are magic in my eyes... but lets stick with fact not Myths.
"That said, there is a visceral connection to the 993 that is lacking in the 996. The smells, the sounds, the general quirkiness of these hand built cars is, IMHO, either immediately appreciated or totally missed."
The 993 is no more Hand Built than a 996.
Many writers of Porsche history confirm that Porsche production changed with the 993 to a highly automated system learned from studies of Toyota manufacturing and automation of "just-in-time" parts production lines.
It is noted in one new book with quotes from Porsche management that the $5000 reduction in price for the 993 from the 964 was due to manufacturing efficiency = "Automation". Another respected author notes the 993 was still in production on the Same assembly line as the early 996. If you want a "hand built" 911 you need to go back to the pre 964 Carrera. I toured the Factory during the production of the 997 and the introduction of Cayman. Even then the "official line" from the tour guide was..." Porsche are hand built!" There are plenty of "hands" involved even today... and Automation mixed in.
There is no doubt that the 996 design did bring cost controls and efficiency further. One comment I found interesting was about our "famous" headlights. They were designed to be installed in one minute... think of it ... compared to separate assembly of three lamp units on the older cars.
911's of any series or year are magic in my eyes... but lets stick with fact not Myths.
03-13-2012, 10:31 AM
#43
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There is something to be said for the appeal of wooden floorboards, Mezger dry sump motors and the sound of the door closing on a 964/993.
That having been said, if you want "mystique" ...
http://www.flachbau.com/1994s.php
The single most beautiful 911 ever produced.
That having been said, if you want "mystique" ...
http://www.flachbau.com/1994s.php
The single most beautiful 911 ever produced.
03-13-2012, 10:54 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Somehow I think we are starting to split hairs on the topic of “hand built.” Of course there was more automation involved with the 993 than there was with the 964 just as there was more with the 964 than the Carrera, etc., etc. As for the $5k price drop, it was always my understanding that was because no one was buying the 964 and they desperately needed sales. Plain and simple.
Putting the 993 in contexts with the 996, remember that the infamous Japanese consultants were brought in during the time the 964 was being built to completely change Porsche’s planning and manufacturing techniques. They may have had some level of impact on how the 993 was made, but probably more in terms of JIT than anything else. Their goal was to max automate production of the 996 and Boxster. To the best of my knowledge they were not directly involved with the 993 which was probably already put to bed at this point in time.
Putting the 993 in contexts with the 996, remember that the infamous Japanese consultants were brought in during the time the 964 was being built to completely change Porsche’s planning and manufacturing techniques. They may have had some level of impact on how the 993 was made, but probably more in terms of JIT than anything else. Their goal was to max automate production of the 996 and Boxster. To the best of my knowledge they were not directly involved with the 993 which was probably already put to bed at this point in time.
03-13-2012, 11:06 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Somehow I think we are starting to split hairs on the topic of “hand built.” Of course there was more automation involved with the 993 than there was with the 964 just as there was more with the 964 than the Carrera, etc., etc. As for the $5k price drop, it was always my understanding that was because no one was buying the 964 and they desperately needed sales. Plain and simple.
Putting the 993 in contexts with the 996, remember that the infamous Japanese consultants were brought in during the time the 964 was being built to completely change Porsche’s planning and manufacturing techniques. They may have had some level of impact on how the 993 was made, but probably more in terms of JIT than anything else. Their goal was to max automate production of the 996 and Boxster. To the best of my knowledge they were not directly involved with the 993 which was probably already put to bed at this point in time.
Putting the 993 in contexts with the 996, remember that the infamous Japanese consultants were brought in during the time the 964 was being built to completely change Porsche’s planning and manufacturing techniques. They may have had some level of impact on how the 993 was made, but probably more in terms of JIT than anything else. Their goal was to max automate production of the 996 and Boxster. To the best of my knowledge they were not directly involved with the 993 which was probably already put to bed at this point in time.
All in all-It's probably pointless to nail down the exact ratio of "handmade" over "automated" production between 993 and 996-but there is no argument when you compare build quality side by side in person-