M96 rebuilt engine sources?
11-23-2011, 10:43 AM
#1
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M96 rebuilt engine sources?
Thinking of the possibility of standing up a shop in our local area with services to include the R&R of 996/997, Boxtser and Cayman Porsches with the M96 engines.
Besides Porsche, what other known quality sources are there for such engines?
Did send an email to LN/Flat6 but no response as yet.
Thank you,
Besides Porsche, what other known quality sources are there for such engines?
Did send an email to LN/Flat6 but no response as yet.
Thank you,
11-23-2011, 03:15 PM
#3
Former Vendor
Here at Flat 6 we haven't received any inquiries from you to my knowledge.. Send to info@flat6innovations.com
We are here till 1800 today, then gone till Monday :-)
We are here till 1800 today, then gone till Monday :-)
11-24-2011, 12:04 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
I've had experience with two M96 (mine is an 03 C2, manual) shops although referring to them both as "M96 shops" isn't fair. I strongly recommend avoiding Vertex Automotive in Miami like the plague. That exercise cost me $9,000 and left me with a catastrophically blown engine and ruined case half, crank, crank carrier, intermediate shaft and other bits that had been mostly fine before. That made it a $14k loss. Details upon request.
At the complete other end of the spectrum, I can't recommend Jake and the guys at Flat 6 Innovations highly enough. Jake and Charles Navarro at LN Engineering have worked together for a number of years to develop an enhanced, engineered solution to the documented weaknesses of the stock M96.
Mine is a long story and I need to take the time to write it all out at some point but for now, I have 700 miles on my FSI engine. I went for the full monty as I track the car regularly in the hot, humid South Florida climate. The dyno report shows 318 hp and 284 lb/ft at the rear wheels. Part of that is attributable to Fabspeed's cold air intake, headers and sport cats (stock mufflers) that I had installed previously. The torque curve is nearly flat from about 3200 on up. It has the stock ECU and factory tune.
It is a very high performance motor that idles and runs so much more smoothly than it did before it is hard to describe. I'd had it back one day when I picked my wife up at airport from a flight from Munich. I tossed her the key, told her keep it above 2,000 and below 6,000 and don't worry about your high heels. She hadn't been in the car since March yet drove off into the airport traffic smoothly. Her grin got wider and wider as traffic let up on the Florida Turnpike. It is as smooth as my 135i road car.
Two friends who are fellow instructors and have dedicated and highly modified Cayman and Boxster (both had Porsche rebuilt crate motors installed in the past 18 months that they modified after the break in period) track cars drove it today and raved about how powerful and tractable it is. You should have seen their faces. I can't wait for Sebring in December although I know I'll be hearing the improved lap times are due to the new motor and not the driver. Never should have let hthem drive it on second thought.
The difference between the hack jobs done by all of these outfits offering $8k - to $10k "rebuild" that leave most of the expensive bits as is and FSI's much more comprehensive solution is night and day. Comparing the lists of replaced parts from one to the other makes this dramatically clear. When those replacement parts include re-engineered, higher quality components that are then dynamically balanced and dyno tested, it is even more impressive.
$18 - $20k is whole lot of money. IMHO, better to go that route first as opposed to closing your eyes and hoping (as I did) that the cheap one can everything the higher priced one does, but at half the cost.
At the complete other end of the spectrum, I can't recommend Jake and the guys at Flat 6 Innovations highly enough. Jake and Charles Navarro at LN Engineering have worked together for a number of years to develop an enhanced, engineered solution to the documented weaknesses of the stock M96.
Mine is a long story and I need to take the time to write it all out at some point but for now, I have 700 miles on my FSI engine. I went for the full monty as I track the car regularly in the hot, humid South Florida climate. The dyno report shows 318 hp and 284 lb/ft at the rear wheels. Part of that is attributable to Fabspeed's cold air intake, headers and sport cats (stock mufflers) that I had installed previously. The torque curve is nearly flat from about 3200 on up. It has the stock ECU and factory tune.
It is a very high performance motor that idles and runs so much more smoothly than it did before it is hard to describe. I'd had it back one day when I picked my wife up at airport from a flight from Munich. I tossed her the key, told her keep it above 2,000 and below 6,000 and don't worry about your high heels. She hadn't been in the car since March yet drove off into the airport traffic smoothly. Her grin got wider and wider as traffic let up on the Florida Turnpike. It is as smooth as my 135i road car.
Two friends who are fellow instructors and have dedicated and highly modified Cayman and Boxster (both had Porsche rebuilt crate motors installed in the past 18 months that they modified after the break in period) track cars drove it today and raved about how powerful and tractable it is. You should have seen their faces. I can't wait for Sebring in December although I know I'll be hearing the improved lap times are due to the new motor and not the driver. Never should have let hthem drive it on second thought.
The difference between the hack jobs done by all of these outfits offering $8k - to $10k "rebuild" that leave most of the expensive bits as is and FSI's much more comprehensive solution is night and day. Comparing the lists of replaced parts from one to the other makes this dramatically clear. When those replacement parts include re-engineered, higher quality components that are then dynamically balanced and dyno tested, it is even more impressive.
$18 - $20k is whole lot of money. IMHO, better to go that route first as opposed to closing your eyes and hoping (as I did) that the cheap one can everything the higher priced one does, but at half the cost.
11-24-2011, 01:01 AM
#6
Former Vendor
Comnstantine,
As you can see from the location of 996C2 we have a large customer base in Florida due to our location in Georgia. Cars are shipped to us from all over North America for our services, we just received two today from Ohio and Virginia respectively.
The engines that we produce aren't simply built and shipped, we carry out the entire scope of the process from removal to teardown, to machine work, to enhancement as well as reassembly and both engine and dyno tuning followed by a 2-300 mile test period and the first break in oil service. All these things that we do are simply required so the engine ends up with the same end result that 996C2 has posted. If these things are not done, the engine will fail or the purchaser's expectations will not be exceeded like 996c2's have been.
A few years ago we worked with other shops, but after NONE of them proved effective with communication/integrity/follow through with the clients and engines I basically gave up on the fact that anybody could do this as well as we do as an all around, packaged experience. Ultimately if we create an engine we are responsible for it, FOREVER almost like a Marriage that has no possibility of Divorce..
The way to create an epic business failure with these cars and engines is by offering second rate engines with marginal installation/ testing and evaluation. Just ask 996C2 how that goes.
With what we HAVE to charge to complete an engine, the removal, reinstallation and dyno tuning is all FREE and an added incentive for the purchaser to ship us the car... We only build engines that we can install; because if I am going to be responsible for the engine- I am going to put my own seal of approval on the entire project and sit my tail in the Driver's seat as the evaluator. Nothing gets by me, so if its not perfect it doesn't ship.
The fastest way for me to lose the reputation I have been building for the past 20 years is to ship an engine that isn't 100% proven. Sure, it might take longer and cost more, but its right, it doesn't break and it performs and guys like 996C2 that have experienced the difference can back that up.
Lots of things you need to consider about what it seems that you want to do. For what we charge for these reconstructed engines there is no room for a 3rd party to handle them. If I sell someone an engine I want to ensure that engine is designed, machined, assembled & installed 100% on site and I want to be the guy that proves it in the engine dyno lab, on the chassis dyno and on the street with my *** in the seat. That might seem a little selfish, but reputations are hard to attain and near impossible to retain at this level when working with these engine platforms.
If you'd like to explore possibilities then you need to do what 996C2 did and come see our facility in person, meet the staff and let me show you the stages that it takes to create one of these engines. I will blow your mind and you'll see why no pics of the facility are posted online (purposely).
If you impress me, we might be able to take it somewhere. I hate to sound cocky, but I get fairly tired of empty promises... Lots of shops and people have approached us wanting to take partial advantage of what we created with these engines and you have to remember that several years ago people LAUGHED AT US for doing this development work.. They said we were wasting our time. Today their shops are bare while we have cars from 15 states on site. Now I teach classes with attendees from all over the world coming here to learn about how these engines can be assembled without 40 special tools.. The last class had two Porsche factory trained techs that are currently employed by dealerships in attendance (how crazy is that?). My curriculum has been accepted for the Worldpac WTI program and I'll be teaching an abbreviated version of it at the 2012 Expo in Las Vegas in January 2012.. You might want to attend.
Come see us, you won't even know what planet you are on when you arrive... I don't believe that 996C2 did. Call Dean Monday and make an appointment.. I'll be goofing off the entire month of December, so you may have to come sooner, or later :-)
As you can see from the location of 996C2 we have a large customer base in Florida due to our location in Georgia. Cars are shipped to us from all over North America for our services, we just received two today from Ohio and Virginia respectively.
The engines that we produce aren't simply built and shipped, we carry out the entire scope of the process from removal to teardown, to machine work, to enhancement as well as reassembly and both engine and dyno tuning followed by a 2-300 mile test period and the first break in oil service. All these things that we do are simply required so the engine ends up with the same end result that 996C2 has posted. If these things are not done, the engine will fail or the purchaser's expectations will not be exceeded like 996c2's have been.
A few years ago we worked with other shops, but after NONE of them proved effective with communication/integrity/follow through with the clients and engines I basically gave up on the fact that anybody could do this as well as we do as an all around, packaged experience. Ultimately if we create an engine we are responsible for it, FOREVER almost like a Marriage that has no possibility of Divorce..
The way to create an epic business failure with these cars and engines is by offering second rate engines with marginal installation/ testing and evaluation. Just ask 996C2 how that goes.
With what we HAVE to charge to complete an engine, the removal, reinstallation and dyno tuning is all FREE and an added incentive for the purchaser to ship us the car... We only build engines that we can install; because if I am going to be responsible for the engine- I am going to put my own seal of approval on the entire project and sit my tail in the Driver's seat as the evaluator. Nothing gets by me, so if its not perfect it doesn't ship.
The fastest way for me to lose the reputation I have been building for the past 20 years is to ship an engine that isn't 100% proven. Sure, it might take longer and cost more, but its right, it doesn't break and it performs and guys like 996C2 that have experienced the difference can back that up.
Lots of things you need to consider about what it seems that you want to do. For what we charge for these reconstructed engines there is no room for a 3rd party to handle them. If I sell someone an engine I want to ensure that engine is designed, machined, assembled & installed 100% on site and I want to be the guy that proves it in the engine dyno lab, on the chassis dyno and on the street with my *** in the seat. That might seem a little selfish, but reputations are hard to attain and near impossible to retain at this level when working with these engine platforms.
If you'd like to explore possibilities then you need to do what 996C2 did and come see our facility in person, meet the staff and let me show you the stages that it takes to create one of these engines. I will blow your mind and you'll see why no pics of the facility are posted online (purposely).
If you impress me, we might be able to take it somewhere. I hate to sound cocky, but I get fairly tired of empty promises... Lots of shops and people have approached us wanting to take partial advantage of what we created with these engines and you have to remember that several years ago people LAUGHED AT US for doing this development work.. They said we were wasting our time. Today their shops are bare while we have cars from 15 states on site. Now I teach classes with attendees from all over the world coming here to learn about how these engines can be assembled without 40 special tools.. The last class had two Porsche factory trained techs that are currently employed by dealerships in attendance (how crazy is that?). My curriculum has been accepted for the Worldpac WTI program and I'll be teaching an abbreviated version of it at the 2012 Expo in Las Vegas in January 2012.. You might want to attend.
Come see us, you won't even know what planet you are on when you arrive... I don't believe that 996C2 did. Call Dean Monday and make an appointment.. I'll be goofing off the entire month of December, so you may have to come sooner, or later :-)
11-24-2011, 06:11 AM
#7
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996c2,
Thank you for the information on your experiences and glad that you finally got a great engine for you to enjoy. I too used to do track days at Sebring/Moroso and miss that fun.
Just to be clear, we are looking at the feasability of standing up a specialty shop in Vero Beach in the future. We are not currently looking to buy a rebuilt engine, just trying to find out what other sources there are for rebuilt M96 engines within the USA other than Porsche sourced units.
Thanks again and enjoy your track days.
Cheers,
Thank you for the information on your experiences and glad that you finally got a great engine for you to enjoy. I too used to do track days at Sebring/Moroso and miss that fun.
Just to be clear, we are looking at the feasability of standing up a specialty shop in Vero Beach in the future. We are not currently looking to buy a rebuilt engine, just trying to find out what other sources there are for rebuilt M96 engines within the USA other than Porsche sourced units.
Thanks again and enjoy your track days.
Cheers,
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11-24-2011, 10:31 AM
#9
Former Vendor
Constantine, Perhaps the answer would be for you to learn more about these engines and perform the work yourself??I offer classes and consulting as well as management assistance if you decided to do this.
It would be very difficult to buy the lower cost engines, re-sell them and install them without ending up in some very bad situations that I am sure you want to avoid.
It would be very difficult to buy the lower cost engines, re-sell them and install them without ending up in some very bad situations that I am sure you want to avoid.
11-24-2011, 10:53 AM
#10
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Jake,
We are kindred spirits in wanting to provide the very best service to our customers.
Our line of 944/928 torque tube (TT) rebuild products were engineered to a very high standard and we believe our TT rebuild services eclipse anything else available, even from Porsche.
We are not planning on offering anything but the very best to our customers if we go through with our future plans.
Best regards,
We are kindred spirits in wanting to provide the very best service to our customers.
Our line of 944/928 torque tube (TT) rebuild products were engineered to a very high standard and we believe our TT rebuild services eclipse anything else available, even from Porsche.
We are not planning on offering anything but the very best to our customers if we go through with our future plans.
Best regards,
11-24-2011, 11:16 AM
#11
Former Vendor
That is very good to hear... Since this is the case I'd recommend traveling to meet with every M96 rebuilder in this country. Put the parts that they use in your hands, see the place where the work is carried out and meet the people doing the work. Drive cars with their engines installed and of course talk to their purchasers. Do this because several of the companies offering these engines use actual salesman to sell you on what they do and that salesman is only there to tell you what you want to hear. Remember that we had the first M96 program and were working with these engines before the tools or parts could even be bought in the USA.
With an M96 there is only one way to reconstruct the engine so it will live and not be a liability... That easy is "all the way". I learned this very early on, but the people that 996C2 had previously dealt with still haven't learned it.
With an M96 there is only one way to reconstruct the engine so it will live and not be a liability... That easy is "all the way". I learned this very early on, but the people that 996C2 had previously dealt with still haven't learned it.
11-24-2011, 03:48 PM
#12
Everything that 996C2 and Jake have said is the truth. I just don't understand why anyone would try one of these rebuilds on the cheap or without the proper training, parts, and facilities. Back in 08 when my engine decided it needed a 2 piece crank shaft, Jake was the only guy in the county I could find that would even talk to me about a rebuild. 3k track only miles later its still going strong. I recommend his programs for air and water cooled engines every chance I get.
11-24-2011, 06:09 PM
#13
Former Vendor
Everything that 996C2 and Jake have said is the truth. I just don't understand why anyone would try one of these rebuilds on the cheap or without the proper training, parts, and facilities. Back in 08 when my engine decided it needed a 2 piece crank shaft, Jake was the only guy in the county I could find that would even talk to me about a rebuild. 3k track only miles later its still going strong. I recommend his programs for air and water cooled engines every chance I get.
Ltusler, Thanks for that..
Just so you guys know, Ltusler had the most challenging build we have ever had here due to the collateral damage that his engine experienced.. I had my crank manufacturer on the other side of the world build him a new crank, it then got lost in shipping, blah, blah, blah.. Then just about the time we source all the replacement parts my Dad passed away while his engine was on my work bench... It took 8 months longer to finish the build than I had proposed... Something thats never happened before and hasn't happened since.
Long story short, Lon and I started with a situation this bad (see pic) and ended up with him being happy two seasons later with an engine producing 340+HP at the rear wheels. It was a challenge, but he was a trooper and remained understanding and respectful even when he didn't have to.
