Changing from 964 to 996
12-01-2010, 12:54 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Well, Mark, it is a slippery slope. But not a ride you won't enjoy (from a former '93 964 RS America owner). Real A/C, real heat, real comfort for the wife, will all be a big plus. Also, you will be able to enjoy the mod process since there is plenty of fun stuff out there to do to it.
If the car you select has a dry RMS area and a good clutch, then don't lay awake nights worrrying about it like some do here. Just do the RMS/IMS/clutch thing if you experience an actual leak from that area. Do them all at once and save a bunch in labor.
The Air/Oil Separator, known here as the AOS, should be replaced if it has not already been done before.
If the coolant resevoir plastic is orange-ish instead of white-ish, then consider that as well for replacement.
If all of this has been previously done, then don't worry about them. The vast percentage of engines will never need replacing. The real advice seems to be to avoid extremely low mileage garage queens, since the problems seem to arise from LACK of use, rather than too much.
If the car you select has a dry RMS area and a good clutch, then don't lay awake nights worrrying about it like some do here. Just do the RMS/IMS/clutch thing if you experience an actual leak from that area. Do them all at once and save a bunch in labor.
The Air/Oil Separator, known here as the AOS, should be replaced if it has not already been done before.
If the coolant resevoir plastic is orange-ish instead of white-ish, then consider that as well for replacement.
If all of this has been previously done, then don't worry about them. The vast percentage of engines will never need replacing. The real advice seems to be to avoid extremely low mileage garage queens, since the problems seem to arise from LACK of use, rather than too much.
12-01-2010, 01:15 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
The 996 is enjoyable, esp. if you will treat some issues like RMS/IMS/AOS/water pump, etc. as preventative maintenance items rather than waiting for them to fail.
The basic 'problem' with any newer car is that the refinements also serve to reduce the unique character and personality of the car. That's not bad. It just makes the car closer to other cars that have been refined using similar goals.
It handles more neutrally than older models (which, for some, means it is less entertaining to drive...for others, it means it handles 'better'...). You turn the key...it starts...no hot or cold rituals. It is quieter. The complexity of the systems tends to reduce the amount of work you can easily do yourself....but with greater dependability and less rust, there is less to do. It is closer to a GT car than the older, lighter, more nimble sports cars...yet, in a collision, I'd bet my a$$ and the family's well-being on the newer car.
In effect, it is less entertaining than older sports cars, but better transportation.
The issue comes down to, what are you looking for?
The basic 'problem' with any newer car is that the refinements also serve to reduce the unique character and personality of the car. That's not bad. It just makes the car closer to other cars that have been refined using similar goals.
It handles more neutrally than older models (which, for some, means it is less entertaining to drive...for others, it means it handles 'better'...). You turn the key...it starts...no hot or cold rituals. It is quieter. The complexity of the systems tends to reduce the amount of work you can easily do yourself....but with greater dependability and less rust, there is less to do. It is closer to a GT car than the older, lighter, more nimble sports cars...yet, in a collision, I'd bet my a$$ and the family's well-being on the newer car.
In effect, it is less entertaining than older sports cars, but better transportation.
The issue comes down to, what are you looking for?
12-01-2010, 01:24 PM
#18
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The only thing that I can add is that I track with a buddy that drives a 964 C4. My 996 out performs his car all around. He heavily considering updating to a 996. He always tells me after a run if he only had 75 more HP. Good luck with whatever you decide.
12-01-2010, 01:28 PM
#19
Racer
Thread Starter
Very well put, it's always a worry in a car with no airbags that part of the crash design involves having a space saver spare wheel under the front hood!
I would guess most of the guys coming from older cars try to dial in some more 'feel' by pre planned suspension mods/ lighter wheels to add some nimbleness to the equation ???
I would guess most of the guys coming from older cars try to dial in some more 'feel' by pre planned suspension mods/ lighter wheels to add some nimbleness to the equation ???
12-01-2010, 01:33 PM
#20
Parts Specialist
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James briings up a valid point - safety is much greater in the event you need it
airbags and designed crumple zones ect equate to less passenger collateral damage - no doubt about it
airbags and designed crumple zones ect equate to less passenger collateral damage - no doubt about it
12-01-2010, 03:32 PM
#21
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I test drove a few 964's and 993's before I bought my 996. The 996 is a newer, more modern car. You won't be smelling that familiar burning oil, but you'll have heat at your feet fairly quickly. It is significantly more powerful, and will launch you ahead of traffic nearly instantaneously. So, it's more fun to drive. And even as a DD, I have it just for that reason - fun to drive.
But also think of the maintenance cycle. Your routine on a 964 is every 5,000 miles. On a 996, the service routine is 15,000 (except for 5,000 mile oil changes) That brings down the cost of ownership significantly.
Not sorry that I bought my 996. But, I would steer clear of the early models. Porsche tended to "secretly" improve on the breed with every car they made. Many of those changes aren't announced, they just appear. Remember that the 996 was a revolutionary car for Porsche. Skip the 99 and 00 models as early adopters. Choose a 03 or greater for the changes made and the 3.6 engine.
larry
But also think of the maintenance cycle. Your routine on a 964 is every 5,000 miles. On a 996, the service routine is 15,000 (except for 5,000 mile oil changes) That brings down the cost of ownership significantly.
Not sorry that I bought my 996. But, I would steer clear of the early models. Porsche tended to "secretly" improve on the breed with every car they made. Many of those changes aren't announced, they just appear. Remember that the 996 was a revolutionary car for Porsche. Skip the 99 and 00 models as early adopters. Choose a 03 or greater for the changes made and the 3.6 engine.
larry
12-01-2010, 03:47 PM
#22
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I've owned two 964's and two 996's in that order. They are very different cars so it's hard to make a recommendation without knowing exactly what you are looking for. The maintenance cost on my 996's was virtually non-existent while my 964's always seemed to need from $500-$2k in annual maintenance not counting oil changes. Good luck in your search!
12-01-2010, 09:33 PM
#23
Mark,
I just came from a 964 widebody and a RS America before that to a 99 Aero. I used the 964 as a daily and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was concerned that the newer car would be a little less involving, but must say I have found it to be every bit a Porsche. My 99 is set up with PSS9s, a lowered ride height and some GT3 bits so it is a little tighter than your average stock 996, but still is quite comfortable on my daily one-way hour commute to work. I formerly considered myself a die-hard air cooled guy, but must say I'm every bit as pleased with the water pumper. I would love to add a non-daily air cooled as a weekend car sometime in the future, when life's responsibilities tip in my favor. My guess is you'll miss the sound and some of the characteristics of the 964, but will probably be happy not to deal with some of the compromises. The 996 does have a few "game over" type failures that can occur, but I believe these can be mitigated through purchasing the right car and performing a few targeted modifications and recurring maintenance actions.
Like all Porsche's maintenance can jump up and bite you as I just had the transmission rebuilt (main pinion bearing degraded badly, which led to fluid contamination, which manifested itself as a 2nd gear failure and excessive wear/pitting of the syncros- only 44k miles on the car). While I was in there I had the clutch replaced and did the LN IMS bearing.
If you can keep both do so, if not take the leap as the 996's represent a great value IMO. You'll know doubt miss some aspects of the older car, but will gain in others. If you have younger kids the back seats are a huge improvement….you can actually securely fit booster seats in the back. I feel substantially better with them in the back of the 996 as compared to the 964. Good luck with your decision.
I just came from a 964 widebody and a RS America before that to a 99 Aero. I used the 964 as a daily and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was concerned that the newer car would be a little less involving, but must say I have found it to be every bit a Porsche. My 99 is set up with PSS9s, a lowered ride height and some GT3 bits so it is a little tighter than your average stock 996, but still is quite comfortable on my daily one-way hour commute to work. I formerly considered myself a die-hard air cooled guy, but must say I'm every bit as pleased with the water pumper. I would love to add a non-daily air cooled as a weekend car sometime in the future, when life's responsibilities tip in my favor. My guess is you'll miss the sound and some of the characteristics of the 964, but will probably be happy not to deal with some of the compromises. The 996 does have a few "game over" type failures that can occur, but I believe these can be mitigated through purchasing the right car and performing a few targeted modifications and recurring maintenance actions.
Like all Porsche's maintenance can jump up and bite you as I just had the transmission rebuilt (main pinion bearing degraded badly, which led to fluid contamination, which manifested itself as a 2nd gear failure and excessive wear/pitting of the syncros- only 44k miles on the car). While I was in there I had the clutch replaced and did the LN IMS bearing.
If you can keep both do so, if not take the leap as the 996's represent a great value IMO. You'll know doubt miss some aspects of the older car, but will gain in others. If you have younger kids the back seats are a huge improvement….you can actually securely fit booster seats in the back. I feel substantially better with them in the back of the 996 as compared to the 964. Good luck with your decision.
12-01-2010, 10:55 PM
#24
I just want to throw a shout-out for the older 996's. I don't doubt that earlier cars might have some issues and they got better as they went along. However, if the car is 11 years old with some miles on it it seems like a lot of the catsrophic stuff was fixed earlier under warranty. They are a great bargain and in my case the maintanance is minimal and work is self inflicted. I have had a great experience with my '99 and would have another in a heartbeat.
