M96 3.6 Motor Blown
08-25-2010, 07:23 PM
#46
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It is official. The P reman M96 3.6 engine for my specific vin# (2002) is 17.8K I checked several dealers as suggested. Add about 3.5K if you don't give them your broken core in exchange. Anyone that has a better price that they can actually get delivered (anywhere in the US) let me know and I'll ship it.
Did someone say rediculous? :-)
Did someone say rediculous? :-)
08-25-2010, 07:34 PM
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08-25-2010, 08:52 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
08-25-2010, 09:59 PM
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Thanks Rennlisters for all the great tips! The saga continues. Given the reman & exchange through P is over 2/3 the value of the car, I am forced to go the rebuild route. I can get more than the difference for a roller I already had offers.
My latest find is Mat Lowrance's shop Rennsport in Reno, NV. For some reason there are not a lot of street watercool rebuild specialists in the Bay Area. Mostly aircool classics and racer builders. Anyone have experience with him? He is well known I am told. It's only about 4 hrs away for me so I'll drive it back and I have a place to stay in Tahoe.
08-25-2010, 10:00 PM
#52
Drifting
Wow! So Porsche has doubled the price of the remans. A year ago the price of the 3.6 was $2,000-$3,000 less than the 3.4. And about the same time there was a special on the 3.6's for about $8,500.
At this rate the engines are going to be more than the early cars are worth. Now maybe the costs for the warranties is sounding more reasonable. But I think this is just making me think I should do the LN bearing upgrade sooner. The IMS failure is one of the few failures that can completely destroy the engine.
By the way in the Sept. 2010 issue of Excellence Flat6 has an add that quotes Boxster/Cayman 3.6 and 3.8 big bores, 350+ HP from $16,995. 996/997 3.6 and 3.8 big bores with up to 420 HP from $17,995 and M96 based 4 liter engines from $20,499.
At this rate the engines are going to be more than the early cars are worth. Now maybe the costs for the warranties is sounding more reasonable. But I think this is just making me think I should do the LN bearing upgrade sooner. The IMS failure is one of the few failures that can completely destroy the engine.
By the way in the Sept. 2010 issue of Excellence Flat6 has an add that quotes Boxster/Cayman 3.6 and 3.8 big bores, 350+ HP from $16,995. 996/997 3.6 and 3.8 big bores with up to 420 HP from $17,995 and M96 based 4 liter engines from $20,499.
08-25-2010, 10:25 PM
#53
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Well this is getting a bit silly. Motor Meister will pick up your motor or whole car the same day if you'd like, and an entire rebuild at a cost of $6k, and you say you don't want to go with them because the wait is too long? I don't know what their cost of supplying you with an engine is, but I'm inclined to think that even if nothing was salvageable from your motor, it'd be below $10k. Also, there's a good core on eBay for $1600, might be worth picking up for you.
If you're actually looking for a complete engine, here's another option:
J and V Auto Parts in Brooklyn NY is asking $11k for a 30k mile motor out of a 2004 model. Their number is: 1-718-241-7809. I'm sure you can recoup some of that by selling your motor for parts as well.
All Automotive Imports in Houston Texas also has a motor, though they just want an offer on it -I've seen them go as low as $4k used. Their number is: 713-941-3377.
If a meteor struck my 3.6 and not even a spark plug was salvageable out of it, I still wouldn't expect to spend even $8k to put another engine in my car, calm down there with the numbers guys...
I'm almost going to make sure you get this done for under $10k out of principle...
If you're actually looking for a complete engine, here's another option:
J and V Auto Parts in Brooklyn NY is asking $11k for a 30k mile motor out of a 2004 model. Their number is: 1-718-241-7809. I'm sure you can recoup some of that by selling your motor for parts as well.
All Automotive Imports in Houston Texas also has a motor, though they just want an offer on it -I've seen them go as low as $4k used. Their number is: 713-941-3377.
If a meteor struck my 3.6 and not even a spark plug was salvageable out of it, I still wouldn't expect to spend even $8k to put another engine in my car, calm down there with the numbers guys...
I'm almost going to make sure you get this done for under $10k out of principle...
08-25-2010, 10:26 PM
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Yup, everything Dharn55 says is accurate. The prices have doulbe recently.
The bad part for me is that I think in California the low prices of the reman exchange program and the relative mix of the age and miles on the 996 fleet and P policy for goodwill has created light demand for watercool rebuilds, until now. I found only two guys that claimed to have done maybe 300 watercool rebuilds between them, and those are unverified claims. The rest are in the 5-20 range. Many, like my indy tech, don't have the tools and setup to do lots of this. As the fleet ages though I expect there will be more demand.
As I already said in the post, the LN Engineering ceramic IMS is IMHO a must-do, especially for your 2000. If your clutch has over 60K miles, then I would just replace both the clutch and IMS tomorrow, seriously. If you have a young clutch, then you can debate on this forum with others the merits of shelling the 1500 for the IMS proactively (500 for the part). Just be aware of the potential of serious damage resulting in an expensive rebuild or worse needing a new block ($8K now).
I am going to blog this whole thing as I go, I am getting set up for a bore scope next week and if that looks reasonable we go for the teardown and inspect. At that point I'll know the damage, and so will you!
The bad part for me is that I think in California the low prices of the reman exchange program and the relative mix of the age and miles on the 996 fleet and P policy for goodwill has created light demand for watercool rebuilds, until now. I found only two guys that claimed to have done maybe 300 watercool rebuilds between them, and those are unverified claims. The rest are in the 5-20 range. Many, like my indy tech, don't have the tools and setup to do lots of this. As the fleet ages though I expect there will be more demand.
As I already said in the post, the LN Engineering ceramic IMS is IMHO a must-do, especially for your 2000. If your clutch has over 60K miles, then I would just replace both the clutch and IMS tomorrow, seriously. If you have a young clutch, then you can debate on this forum with others the merits of shelling the 1500 for the IMS proactively (500 for the part). Just be aware of the potential of serious damage resulting in an expensive rebuild or worse needing a new block ($8K now).
I am going to blog this whole thing as I go, I am getting set up for a bore scope next week and if that looks reasonable we go for the teardown and inspect. At that point I'll know the damage, and so will you!
08-25-2010, 10:32 PM
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Well this is getting a bit silly. Motor Meister will pick up your motor or whole car the same day if you'd like, and an entire rebuild at a cost of $6k, and you say you don't want to go with them because the wait is too long? I don't know what their cost of supplying you with an engine is, but I'm inclined to think that even if nothing was salvageable from your motor, it'd be below $10k. Also, there's a good core on eBay for $1600, might be worth picking up for you.
If you're actually looking for a complete engine, here's another option:
J and V Auto Parts in Brooklyn NY is asking $11k for a 30k mile motor out of a 2004 model. Their number is: 1-718-241-7809. I'm sure you can recoup some of that by selling your motor for parts as well.
All Automotive Imports in Houston Texas also has a motor, though they just want an offer on it -I've seen them go as low as $4k used. Their number is: 713-941-3377.
If a meteor struck my 3.6 and not even a spark plug was salvageable out of it, I still wouldn't expect to spend even $8k to put another engine in my car, calm down there with the numbers guys...
I'm almost going to make sure you get this done for under $10k out of principle...
If you're actually looking for a complete engine, here's another option:
J and V Auto Parts in Brooklyn NY is asking $11k for a 30k mile motor out of a 2004 model. Their number is: 1-718-241-7809. I'm sure you can recoup some of that by selling your motor for parts as well.
All Automotive Imports in Houston Texas also has a motor, though they just want an offer on it -I've seen them go as low as $4k used. Their number is: 713-941-3377.
If a meteor struck my 3.6 and not even a spark plug was salvageable out of it, I still wouldn't expect to spend even $8k to put another engine in my car, calm down there with the numbers guys...
I'm almost going to make sure you get this done for under $10k out of principle...
Motormeister said they have approx 91 cars lined up, wait time 3-4 months. But please check with them directly. The numbers are real though, that is for P reman engines. So far I have not talked to anyone that has any kind of rebuild or used availlable.
08-26-2010, 12:59 AM
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I checked your post and you have an 04 with about 31K miles. It must be about 2years out of warranty ... was it dealer serviced all along? Did you get your hands on the broken IMS, if so please contact me by email.
My understanding from P is they take these factors into account when deciding to give you "goodwill" .... consider yourself lucky.
The latest chapter of this saga is that my indy guy now has 4 watercools lined up for IMS replacement, in response to the Excellence magazine article. That has really touched off storm. Just today he got a shipment of LN Engineering parts and the tool. I will keep you updated on how he likes them after installation.
By the way, one thing I learned is that sudden loss of large amounts of oil is either the seal going or the bearing fit getting loose in the race through one of several mechanisms. I think it is the "better" way to fail because you notice it quickly and most people will not try to drive with low oil pressure. You will never know if it was rebuildable, only the big P has that secret.... (Still no ill will to P :-)
My understanding from P is they take these factors into account when deciding to give you "goodwill" .... consider yourself lucky.
The latest chapter of this saga is that my indy guy now has 4 watercools lined up for IMS replacement, in response to the Excellence magazine article. That has really touched off storm. Just today he got a shipment of LN Engineering parts and the tool. I will keep you updated on how he likes them after installation.
By the way, one thing I learned is that sudden loss of large amounts of oil is either the seal going or the bearing fit getting loose in the race through one of several mechanisms. I think it is the "better" way to fail because you notice it quickly and most people will not try to drive with low oil pressure. You will never know if it was rebuildable, only the big P has that secret.... (Still no ill will to P :-)
08-26-2010, 01:19 AM
#59
Burning Brakes
Did you check with lapd?
http://www.911pcar.com/
I agree with others that you could sell your 'roller' and buy a whole new car for a lot less hassle than getting a new motor. LAPD buys rollers.
http://www.911pcar.com/
I agree with others that you could sell your 'roller' and buy a whole new car for a lot less hassle than getting a new motor. LAPD buys rollers.
08-26-2010, 02:15 AM
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To be precise, that is 91 waiting in line for a rebuild of their own core. I don't know if P has 91 remans left anywhere. Rumor is they terminate the program at the end of this year for the M96. As the fleet ages and the IMS all fail, I predict an explosion in the demand for rebuild since there will not be enough spare cores around.